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Discussion in 'Bad Dog Cafe' started by Colo Springs E, Apr 14, 2019.
Congratulations to Tiger. It was great to see him win again at the Masters.
Yeah, this is above even Ali coming back from exile. The physical challenge alone makes it amazing. He was given a 50-50 chance of ever playing recreational golf again, certainly not winning another title. That just seemed completely out of the question.
IMO he is the Lance Armstrong of golf and just like Lance, there was a lot of money being spent to squash the remors for years until the reality finally came out. All the signs are there and they surprisingly parallel the two atheletes. They both have trainers claiming that it is impossible and that their guy is just genetically gifted beyond anyone they have ever seen. In Armstrong's case, it was his off the chart VO2 Max as confirmed by Nike testing.....which turned out to be a lie. Tigers long time traininer insisted that it was Tiger's incredible endurance that allowed him to lift lots of reps and to do it 6 days per week that gave him his physical edge.....also trademarks of using PED's.
I will also forward a couple of other red flags. In baseball, veteran players claimed that you always knew who was taking steroids because they all ended up with back injuries because the steroids destroyed the connective tissues....Tiger's back problem arrived suspiciously when he was at his best physical shape. Could certainly be a coincidence, but to me it was not.
In Armstrong's case, many riders all claimed it for decades and there are many on the PGA tour who have said the same of Tiger...even after his fall from the top. Again, maybe jealous comments only, but a red flag.
Tiger also flew to Australia to be treated by a doctor that was busted for the PED scandal involving Barry Bonds...and reportedly paid over $100,000 for some knee treatments. This doctor treats patients using PED's because they work to speed recovery and build muscle rapidly, so do you really believe that he didn't prescribe the same for Tiger? He could have gone to any doctor in the US that he wanted to, but that would not have allowed the illegal substances to remain off the radar.
Now I knew that Armstrong was a fraud back in the mid-80's by his response to claims that he was blood doping. His response was always that his urine tests never showed any drug usage, but any endurance athelete knows that blood doping is not drug related...Lance knew it very well yet it fooled people. I don't have a smoking gun regarding Tiger as we know he was an amazing golfer from his childhood, but I do honestly believe that he was using PED's at the hight of his career to provide greater endurance and strength and likely still did trying to get back on top in later years. Tour play is draining and having that endurance and recovery boost would allow him to play stronger down the stretch compared to other golfers....which is how Tiger normally won those events.
Sorry for the long winded response, I am not wanting to indict this guy nor whiz on his achievement. I am also aware that to many people, Tiger is a golfing God and to make such claims against him will set them off into a rage, but I have looked at Tiger as another Nike marketed fraud at some level just like an Armstrong. And like Armstrong or Bonds, they were good enough atheletes that they could still have been the best without going down that road, but they cheated to get there instead. Just too many red flags for me to believe otherwise regarding Tiger, there is just so much money involved with that man (the golf coverage ratings, the endorsements, etc are over a billion dollars easily) that he is too important for the PGA, Gatorade, Nike, etc. to ever let the cash cow die. To me, he has over-achieved due to PED's.
No raging here. You made me think; but did you really have to be a Debbie Downer so soon?
I pray that's all just useless speculation.
Followed him a long time myself, and yes, I did have my suspicions about Armstrong sad to say.
That whole debacle was a real shame.
Well, everyone is entitled to their opinion I guess. My opinion is that you are being a conspiracy theorist. And as far as it goes, although I respect Tiger's achievements including this one, I am not a fan of the man. Same goes for young Nicklaus and young Ali. They were all DBs. Doesn't make them juicers.
I cannot think of anything worse for golf than Tiger Woods winning another Masters.
He's has been sucking all of the air from the game for 20 years and this means that it will not stop.
You guys are right, this isn't the time for the accusations. Those that are elated by his win are not interested in discussing this topic....sort of like finding out somebody was in a car crash and pointing out what a bad driver that person was at the same time. It is a great accomplishment and everyone loves a come back story, but I just can't help but feel that it is based on a lie and thus not a great accomplishment. When Armstrong came back from cancer to win it all, things were the exact same way, until the truth came out years later.
Those who feel that PED's would actually do much to help one play golf haven't played golf. Sheer strength does very little to help one's golf game. That's why there's an old joke about the 500 pound gorilla playing golf.
I'm glad to see Tiger win. I just think it's funny to call an interracial guy a poster boy for the old white guys...
Great comeback, really fun to watch, and I'm very happy for him after all he's gone through. If I were Tiger, though, all things considered, I'd hang up my spikes right now.
Not to take anything away from Tiger, but not even the greatest comeback in golf. Ben Hogan came back from a car accident where he was nearly killed in a head on collision with a bus.
I believe it is a Mastersbuilt.
Yeah, but Tiger had a car accident, too and a DUI. ;>)
This is all reasonable grounds for suspicion, but it's hardly slam-dunk proven fact.
Lance had people in his operation confess their own PED use and accuse him of the same, a blood test collected before there was good testing for EPO was subsequently re-tested and found to be positive, and then he finally confessed to doping. So there are some key elements in Lance's case that aren't present in Tiger's.
BTW, you're right about Lance's answers to questions about PED use. I heard an interview with two retired CIA officers who wrote a book about how to tell when people are lying. They used a couple of Lance press conferences as examples, and said while they couldn't prove it at the time, Lance was showing textbook examples of all the signs of lying. Subsequently proven right. Astute of you to pick up on Lance's evasions etc.
It doesn't enrage me. There's a good chance you're right.
From my own experience with lumbarsacral back pain, I would have done just about anything if I thought it would help. It can be unspeakable pain and you can't get away from it. If I was Tiger and could pay a shady doc from Australia to infuse me with Kangaroo Pituitary Extract, I would have tried it (except I'm a health care professional, obsessive research nerd, and pathologically skeptical, so I probably wouldn't have believed the shady doc's sales pitch in the first place).
And that's me, with no worldwide fame and sports legacy to put more pressure on me to recover and get back to competitive form.
The one thing I will say for Tiger is that when all his misbehavior came out, he owned it. He didn't do one of those crafted lawyer/PR firm scripts where he sounds vaguely apologetic and doesn't really admit to anything. He said yes he did it and yes it was wrong. He certainly reached the heights of hubris, but he has also had a hefty wallop of humility upside the head.
He's not a hero to me. He doesn't wear the aura of invincibility any more. He's just another broken guy trying to put the pieces back together.
I wasn't much of a fan when he was invincible. He did incredible things so routinely, it made golf boring (some would say it's always boring).
Now that he's an old man with a torqued up back, I'm perversely pleased to see him win in a way that I never was when he was superman.
As a non golf fan, my perspective is also that its nice to have a comeback story like this.
I have had a serious back injury and can tell you straight up, if it comes down to a matter of walking/and or recovery versus staying "drug Free" and not walking or recovering some form of mobility I would be taking any form of supplement a real doctor could suggest.
To go on and on about PED's in this context of his comeback is very poor form IMO.
Golf is an insanely tough game to begin with, but to go to the bottom with so much on his shoulders the last 10 years and then come rip it up at no less than the Masters=== Pure Awesomeness!!! Bravo Tiger!!
That is a fair debate on the physical front, and I think we're going to hear a lot about it in the days to come. The thing is for me, go look at that DUI photo from Tiger. It doesn't get any more down than that. Then, go look at him hugging his kids and mother walking off the 18th green today. As I've said, I have never been a fan of the man. But looking at the golfer, this is just the unimaginable.
And, speaking as a guy who comes from a seriously misspent youth, I have to say I'm also leaving room for the redemption of the man. Others allowed me that possibility, and it would be poor form in the worst way for me not to do the same. For what it's worth.
Incredible fortitude, perseverance and tenacity regardless of his personal short-comings. It's a great message about not quitting and ultimately a good thing for the game.
It was great to see Tiger win. He just went out there today and kicked ass. Yes, I get that he has had issues with drug use and cheating on his wife and so forth. Hey, everybody can not live the perfect life that I and I am sure the rest of us here on the internet have in that regard. Still. Great win! Possibly legendary.
"Tiger, you've just won the Masters, what are you going to do now"
"I'm headed to IHOP for a weiner wrap"