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This Is Awfully Strange....

Discussion in 'Tele-Technical' started by soulman969, Mar 3, 2012.

  1. soulman969

    soulman969 Telefied Ad Free Member

    Mar 20, 2011
    Englewood, CO
    I'm installing Keystones and a 4-way Oak-Grigsby switch in my CVC. Not only did I wire the switch as per the diagram from the AcmeGuitarworks site but it's also wired exactly the same as the one in my MIM which is also identical to both that Acme diagram and the one from the Seymour Duncan site.

    The continuity of the switch checks out as it should when it's unwired and removed but it's when I install the switch and wire it that thing get very strange.

    In Pos.#1 the neck pickup is still engaged in parallel with the bridge just as it is in Pos.#2 which is functioning as it should. Pos.#3 which should be neck only appears to be bridge/neck in parallel as well but the bridge output is diminished. Pos#4 which should be bridge/neck in series is neck only.

    The resistance readings on Pos #1-#3 are all the same as if they were bridge/neck parallel and Pos #4 reads just the necks resistance. None of the positions give readings of bridge/neck in series. The wiring is all correct and checked so many times I have it memorized and there is no contact of wires, jumpers or solder to the wrong terminals. The pickups are each grounded separately to the pots and the jack sleeve is grounded to a pot as well. The shielded cavity is also grounded.

    If there is a Dr. Gregory House of Telecasters, Keystones and 4-way switches around would you care to offer a diagnoses? Seriously I don't have a clue and a fellow member who had put a number of them in his own guitars is just as stumped as I am. If anyone wants to take a shot at a solution I'm all ears.
     

  2. DrBanana

    DrBanana Tele-Holic

    657
    Feb 22, 2011
    London
    I had something similar, did my head in finding out what it was.
    Did you cut the original earth to the cover on the neck pup before installing the extra earth lead? I thought I had but some shoddy soldering had reconnected it
     

  3. soulman969

    soulman969 Telefied Ad Free Member

    Mar 20, 2011
    Englewood, CO
    The Keystones each come with their own separate ground (blue wire) and both are grounded to the volume pot which is my understanding of the way Keystones should be installed.
     

  4. DrBanana

    DrBanana Tele-Holic

    657
    Feb 22, 2011
    London
    So you should have 3 wires coming from the neck pup, yes?

    There's the normal + and - and an extra earth from the pup cover. The normal connection to the pup cover from the - wire is snipped and the extra earth soldered here and run to the ground of the volume pot.

    (presuming your pup has the normal metal cover of course)
     

  5. DrBanana

    DrBanana Tele-Holic

    657
    Feb 22, 2011
    London
    ...and the original negative/ground wire goes to the switch...

    Ignore the blue wires thats for a kill-switch pot...
     

    Attached Files:


  6. Ricky D.

    Ricky D. Poster Extraordinaire

    Age:
    66
    Oct 22, 2006
    Garner, North Carolina
    Have faith and keep checking. If everything is connected properly, it will work properly. There is an error, you are just repeatedly overlooking it. I've been there and done that, it happens.

    You have the bridge pickup signal showing up in #1, where it doesn't belong. You have no bridge signal in #4, the series position. Focus on the bridge pickup connections.

    How about a photo of the switch wiring? Maybe we will see something.
     

  7. theGecko71

    theGecko71 Tele-Holic

    704
    Nov 18, 2008
    Dayton (NYC Refugee)
    Now that I've installed a four-way on my tele--and I'm having problems with it--I'm finding that LOTS of people are having problems with it, too. I almost wish I'd just gone 3-way, or better, left the guitar as it was (and Esquire). Simpler is better, I guess.
     

  8. DrBanana

    DrBanana Tele-Holic

    657
    Feb 22, 2011
    London
    That's a pity - I think it's one of the best things you can do to a Tele. I have to admit it took me a while to wire my first one up properly and I've fallen foul of a cheap switch in another guitar but the perseverance has certainly paid off.
     

  9. milocj

    milocj Friend of Leo's Ad Free Member

    Aug 21, 2005
    Michigan
    Have you tried working the wired up switch through its positions with it not screwed to the control plate? Sometimes the slot is a little too short and position 1 or 4 won't fully engage at the extreme end.

    A needle file will usually solve it, and since it's an Asian made model the plate may be different than a US or MIM by a slight amount.
     

  10. sjtalon

    sjtalon Poster Extraordinaire Ad Free Member

    position 1 is bridge only, switch all the way back. So the neck isn't disengaging.

    Test was made with the switch out of the control plate so no problem with the lever throw not being far enough.

    Switch has been entirely unwired, and a continuity test of ALL lugs (pairs and commons, both sides) in all 4 positions confirm the switch is GOOD.

    Switch re-wired, and still the same problem. Odds of the switch terminals having a bad solder point twice are highly unlikely.

    It's like this thing is in the twilight zone.

    So in # 1, the neck isn't disengaging, and pos. 4, no bridge pup coming into series. Resistance readings in pos. 4 position show that the neck is there though.

    Also pickup connections on the switch terminals are good as a series resistance (15K) can be read on the respective terminals.

    It's a strange deal as one could think ( a LONG SHOT) that one pickup could be trying to feed itself ground though another, but per the lug connections at the time, it seems impossable.

    Also the two left terminals that are connected to ground (back of a pot,via a wire) for the neck pup show NO resistence to ground............id est, perfect continuity.

    http://www.seymourduncan.com/support/wiring-diagrams/schematics.php?schematic=tele_4ws
     
    Last edited: Mar 3, 2012

  11. soulman969

    soulman969 Telefied Ad Free Member

    Mar 20, 2011
    Englewood, CO
    3 wires from both neck and bridge, + and - and a 3rd which is grounded separately to the volume pot. So there is no jumper on the bridge to remove and ground to install and no ground from under the bridge is needed either. The pickups both have that extra wire.
     

  12. soulman969

    soulman969 Telefied Ad Free Member

    Mar 20, 2011
    Englewood, CO
    Yes, the wiring is essentially the same as your diagram and every other one I have seen. Neck + and - both to the switch and the extra ground to the volume pot. All other connections are as per your diagram.
     

  13. soulman969

    soulman969 Telefied Ad Free Member

    Mar 20, 2011
    Englewood, CO
    No, I have the neck at Pos#1 along with the bridge in parallel. Pos#2 is normal. Bridge and neck in Parallel. Yes, no bridge in Pos#4 at all, neck only, when it should be B/N in series. Pos#3 is B/N parallel as well when it should be neck only.

    Ricky I'd love to post a photo but I have no way to shoot it and upload it. One of these days I should stop spending money on guitars and basses and buy a digital camera, ya' think?. :D
     

  14. soulman969

    soulman969 Telefied Ad Free Member

    Mar 20, 2011
    Englewood, CO
    What's puzzling is that I have 4-ways in two other guitars one wired identically to the one I'm working on and they both work just fine. Like I said that's what's strange. The same switch with the same wiring in my MIM hasn't given me a lick of trouble yet this one has. New switch, new pickups in the CVC so it must be in the wiring or grounds somewhere I just haven't found out where yet.
     

  15. soulman969

    soulman969 Telefied Ad Free Member

    Mar 20, 2011
    Englewood, CO
    Yeah, the excursions of the selector are fine milo. It goes from #1-#4 with room to spare. I have the switch detached from the control plate now and the results are the same as when it's attached. That's good advice though. A lot of guys who do this mod miss that.
     

  16. soulman969

    soulman969 Telefied Ad Free Member

    Mar 20, 2011
    Englewood, CO
    That's what I've been saying. It's like it's haunted. Everything is wired just as that diagram shows which is the same as the one Acme posts on their site which the same as the one Dr. Banana posted here.

    New pickups, new switch, pickups work fine when tested and continuity on the switch is good. It just can't be one of those components. It has to be in the wiring or grounds somewhere. This has become a mission now. I will solve this bugger eventually and when I do I'll have story to tell my grandkids.

    I think it goes something like this;

    "See that pretty Tele over there. Did I ever tell you about the time........" :lol:
     

  17. DrBanana

    DrBanana Tele-Holic

    657
    Feb 22, 2011
    London
    Well I'm stumped, sorry. The 3rd wire from the bridge pup is odd - what is that connected to? I've had this before but it had a lug to connect to the pup screw as a ground for the bridge plate. Is this what this is?
     

  18. sjtalon

    sjtalon Poster Extraordinaire Ad Free Member

    The 3rd wire (blue) on a Keystone bridge pup is for grounding the metal baseplate.


    So the Keystone Neck ( and a CS Texas Special neck) and the Keystone bridge pup have separate positive and neutral leads, AND a baseplate, and neck cover to ground wire.



    So that makes installing a 4 way like Gieco, even a caveman could do it. :p
     

  19. Ricky D.

    Ricky D. Poster Extraordinaire

    Age:
    66
    Oct 22, 2006
    Garner, North Carolina
    My theory at this point is that one of the pickup leads is mis-identified. Thats the only way you could have everything appear to be correct and get screwy results.

    If I was troubleshooting this, I would disconnect the pickups and remove as much solder as possible from the switch terminals. Then I'd start from scratch and identify the +, -, and ground leads for each pickup conclusively and make sure I can identify them with no ambiguity at all after I run them through to the control cavity. Should then be able to connect as indicated on the diagram and get good results.
     

  20. soulman969

    soulman969 Telefied Ad Free Member

    Mar 20, 2011
    Englewood, CO
    Oh great. This failure means now I'll have to turn in my big wooden club and my leopard skin tunic and be a caveman no more. Oh the shame. :rolleyes::D
     

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