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The End Of The Mustang Production Is Here!!

Discussion in 'Modeling Amps, Plugins and Apps' started by olefudd, Mar 11, 2017.

  1. Teleposer

    Teleposer Tele-Meister

    Age:
    47
    204
    Sep 28, 2016
    UK
    Talking of modelers. I've heard people get excellent results just with Guitar Rig. Yeah I know the consensus is that the FX section of GR is where it's at and the amp sims are pants, but I've heard people do good stuff with it. At least they claimed it was GR.

    I'm happy with free plugins and Recabinet. Programs like iZotope Trash that use convolution can take a standard guitar tone and turn it in to pretty much anything else.

    Lots of confusion about amp sims and what they are and what they do. At the end of the day you are trying to emulate a mic'd up guitar speaker, being driven by an amp. And even if you get just a 'meh' tone, you can turn that in to a killer tone using convolution programs on top of that. It's amazing what you can do.

    But no, there is no substitute for a real guitar amp in software yet. It's a different type of thing. I know holy wars rage over this, and I don't pretend to know much about it. But I can get pretty good guitar tones just using a computer, oh, and my Mustang I via USB.

    What is amazing about modeling, is that you can stick your headphones in to the jack of the Mustang, and it emulates the load on the speaker and actually sounds like it is coming out of the speaker, because it has been physically modeled to do so. So many take that for granted. Modeling is not just about the circuitry of the amp, it's about the load on the speaker and the pushing out of the sine waves that all music is ultimately comprised of. A lot of people take that for granted.
     
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  2. privatesalt

    privatesalt Tele-Meister

    103
    Jan 31, 2014
    Alabama
    I run the amp models in the Mustang into cab IRs from Redwirez.. http://www.redwirez.com/ (The redwirez cabs included in S-Gear that is. It has a Proconvolver... http://www.scuffhamamps.com/product/proconvolver ).

    These cabinets sound great with the Mustang amp models...the 4x12 Basketweave is heavenly. If you could load them into the new Mustang in Fuse that would great! It would definitely push it into high end modeler territory. I would be very surprised (and excited) if it had it though.

    Just amazing what all can be done these days. I've spent countless hours over the years building and hacking tube amps to get tones. Now just click a mouse and done.
     
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  3. fender4life

    fender4life Friend of Leo's

    Sep 18, 2011
    los angeles
    Well, i for one am 110% convinced that modeling *CAN* sound and more importantly feel like a real tube amp because i have experienced it with my mustang. Maybe not when pumped thru a flat system like a PA for power, but as a combo with a guitar speaker it can and does. As i have said before it's not a given......you have to find it, but it's there. And as i have also said plenty, thats the negative part of modeling....if for the sake of argument they are capable of 1,000,000 different sounding/feeling tones, 999,000,000 of them will likely sound and/or feel like a solid state device. Personally i find a lot of models in the mustang to be such that if they were all it had i'd be on the other side of the fence. But thats why to me modelers with a ton of models and settings need to exist. The more there are the more chance a REAL tube like tone that you love and find as good or better then a tube amp can be had, albeit with time spent, possibly too much for many people.

    Look at me for example. I bought this amp years after i stopped gigging so i really had no way to know how it would cut it as a gigging amp. But i did at times have a rare gig or a occasional jam, but those weren't happening for the first couple years i had it. Then i did a bar gig for the first time in years and found the weakness of the mustang. That being it was very bright and thin at stage volume. After trying various things over the course of several more jams i finally hit on the way to make it happen. Then this last time i nailed it to the point i was as happy as i have ever been with a live tone.

    So you see, when people talk about the mustang not being able to pull off a great or even decent tube tone and feel, chances are they just haven't found the way to get it. Look at me.....4 years and i just now found the way to the best out of it ! But it is what i would call perfection if i didn't know better to ever use that word. But thats what it felt like when i compare it to all the tube amps i have used over the years. Every single thing that is great about tube amps is there, some BETTER than tube amps. In fact, my tone now is indeed superior to every tube amp i've owned and i'll tell you why. Even tho the best tube amps i have owned had a tone and feel i loved, the mustang not only gives me that now and absolutely 100% as good as those tube amps, but it does a few things better. First, consistency. The best consistency i have ever gotten from any tube amp was at best hit or miss. I could literally put my guitar down and come back minutes later and it sounds like a different amp. One room it;s great, next one it sounds so bad i wanna pack up and go home. The mustang's consistency? It sounds the same every time i plug in !!! You wanna talk about a huge improvement over tube amps, thats priceless ! Second, touch sensitivity. NO TUBE AMP i have ever owned is near as good. Yeah, if you turn a non master tube amp to 10 it will be as good, maybe. But who can do that? I have never owned a tube amp where i could set the amount of distortion and with the guitar volume has as wide a range of clean to distortion i can get with the mustang.

    So to those who say the mustang doesn't sound like a tube amp, i agree. It sounds AND more importantly feels better then most and as good as any that I have owned at least. Once i got my sound so perfect i found myself being about to do anything i wanted all nite. I never even had to think about it because unlike other amps the mustang responded to my every request with a struggle. Switching pickups and rolling the volume up and down to get the right tone at the right moment was perfection. I've had that with other amps sure, but not consistently and not as good. To me a great amp responds to your guitar's controls and your hands, your technique exactly as you want so that you aren't constantly struggling to coax the perfect tone out that fits in the mix and consequentially you forget about your gear and just find the groove and play, never thinking about what knob you might try tweaking to make the amp do what you want it to.

    I hate to say this because it always sounds pretentious, but i need to say it because it's important to my argument. I've been playing since around '70 and spent 25 years in bands buying new amps as often as most people change thier underwear. I owned most marshall models made from the 70's on to the 90's and a ton of other amps. (tho i was mainly a marshall guy) At this point I feel i deserve the right to say that i know what good tone is. I paid my dues and i just do. I'd have to be brain dead not to after all those years in bands. And i have had great tone many times throughout my journey. But this "toy" as some think of the mustang absofreakinlutely DOES nail every good thing about a great tube tone and feel and then some as i described earlier. And if someone say it's not capable of that then i know they simply never found it in the amp even tho it's there. Because i know for a fact it is. The only way i could possibly be wrong about that is if i DON'T know good tone, tube tone, etc.

    On last thing....longevity. As i mentioned earlier i worked in a job for years where i repaired a ton of fender amps. The solid state fenders have been very unreliable. The construction was sub par on most of them and they would often break down very quickly after being new. They were built with what is often called "built in obsolescence". Built to make it thru the warranty period but not much longer unless you baby it and don;t use it too much. The warranty was only a year on most of them and the mustang is different in that regard. The warranty is 5 years. They are designated "non field repairable" meaning if they break in the warranty period, fender service centers are not to do repairs and are not even supplied with parts for it. They are just replaced. After the 5 years your on your own. Point is, to insure they make it to 5 years they must build them so that they are likely going to handle going much longer. Theres no way to build in obsolescence to just past the 5 year point of course. One year is much easier. And they CAN be repaired if you know how to work on things like this or take it somewhere for non warranty work. Parts can be found or jury rigged in one way or another. But the point is they ARE built quite well compared to other SS amps and certainly if they are junk then all SS amps are.

    Anyways, i think the mustang is a hell of an amp, a great gigging amp once you find the right settings and model that works, dirt cheap, reliable, builtin effects and tuner, and easily beats many tube amps at thier own game. Not as good as tubes? Please ! :rolleyes:
     
    Last edited: Mar 26, 2017
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  5. Teleposer

    Teleposer Tele-Meister

    Age:
    47
    204
    Sep 28, 2016
    UK
    Anything else you would like to add?
     
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  6. fender4life

    fender4life Friend of Leo's

    Sep 18, 2011
    los angeles
    I would, but I'm out of breath. :D
    Actually i would. A negative thing actually, and one i fixed with a outboard EQ and mentioned in another thread. Before this last outing i DID have it dialed in for live. But it was missing something EQ wise. The amp has a lot of upper mids and a lack of high range treble at stage volume. Thats why it tends to be bright and thin when loud because you jack up the highs enough to not sound dull and it's all hi mids and it gets a bit nasty. Hi mids can really thin out a tone, but they make the amp sound great at low volume. I think thats why fender gave the amp this overall EQ. They figured at the price point it would be in the hands of mostly bedroom players.

    anyways, what i'm getting at is that i had the amp dialed in foe live use already but it was not 100% satisfying due to the slight EQ imbalance between those 2 ranges. It also needed some lows added too. So with a EQ in the loop i added treble but left the hi mids untouched and now the top 3rd of the frequency range is much more in balance, or flatter. The a slight boost at 200Hz for those missing lows ad the result was perfect frequency response along with the already great touch sensitivity and volume knob OD to clean range. Nothing left to want for. Anyways, that IMO is the only flaw in the amp. It need a bit better range in the frequency range to add some frequencies it needs. This may now be the case with all the models, but it is for me with the bassman which is the only model i use in a band context.

    Ok, now i'm REALLY out of breath ! :lol:
     
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  7. Teleposer

    Teleposer Tele-Meister

    Age:
    47
    204
    Sep 28, 2016
    UK
    Don't let that stop you.

    I can tell you are just getting warmed up.
     
  8. privatesalt

    privatesalt Tele-Meister

    103
    Jan 31, 2014
    Alabama
    I've got it to feel great thru a PA.. 2 Yamaha DBR15 powered speakers, and 1 Electro-Voice EKX-18SP Powered Subwoofer. 3500w all together. It can kick some serious butt. It will thump your body. Drop D is an amazing sound and body massage. The stereo effects are awesome too. I keep the master volume on the 3v2 turned all the way down.

    I love playing just the amp too though. When I don't want to turn on the computer and entire system. The amp has a great feel. It's going to be hard to beat it.

    I'm curious if they have upgraded or changed the algorithms. If current Mustang presets will be compatible? Or if we will be starting over. Maybe they will have a present converter. Or 'Import v2 presents' in the software...and it make it close as it can. I pretty much know all my presets anyway, and how to dial them in. I don't have many. So no biggie but would be nice.
     
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  9. fender4life

    fender4life Friend of Leo's

    Sep 18, 2011
    los angeles
    Well, like i said in recently, when the new one arrives i will buy one at guitar center on the 45 day return policy. And if i cannot get one sound out of it that i feel is as good as my V2's tweaked bassman patch it will go back no matter how good it is in other ways. I hope they do keep some of them, especially the bassman, but as a new model i wouldn't think they would. I imagine the thing will have a whole new engine.
     
  10. Jim Dep

    Jim Dep Friend of Leo's

    May 23, 2010
    Northern Colorado
    You're right, but I draw the line if it starts looking like something that belongs in the Bat Cave next to Batman's wardrobe closet. ....that turned me off from the Peavey Vypr series.....or however they spelled viper .....I'm not exactly a 12 year old kid....unfortunately. :)
     
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  11. Jim Dep

    Jim Dep Friend of Leo's

    May 23, 2010
    Northern Colorado
    From my standpoint, you brought this upon yourself beginning with the thread you started on the Amp Central Station section about "ditching the Mustang". IMHO, you didn't need to throw the Mustang under the bus to justify fulfilling your desire to get the tube amp you wanted. Totally unnecessary and irrelevant. You say I "creep you out" by regurgitating back to you YOUR own words....I didn't make this up...I just put a quick summary together and presented it so that people make good choices on their next amp purchase based on facts, experience, history and opinions that can be backed up. The bottom line is that your happiness is more important than an amplifier, and so is the happiness of those less fortunate who need solid information to help them make their next purchase. Good luck, best wishes.
     
  12. Jim Dep

    Jim Dep Friend of Leo's

    May 23, 2010
    Northern Colorado
    If my guitarist friend of 40+ years posted in guitar forums....these would be almost his exact words based on a long history of playing in bands. He took a break for a few years and then put together a band not long after the Mustang V2s came out. He already owns some of the best amps made, IMO....certainly a collection of amps that I couldn't afford to buy any of them at present time. Please excuse my own pretentiousness, but I worked decades ago with some players in the country field who ..many have passed on.....but are still known for their guitar tones along with other skills. I don't have the financial success, but I can still discern music tone quality directly from both the stage and audience.

    My friend, John was telling me over the phone that he was going to start working clubs again, but not wanting to travel far from his home as we did in our younger days. He didn't want to risk having his amps stolen, or get dinged up, since he's kept them in great condition. One by one, he started buying new amps to take out to the clubs instead......a new Mesa....didn't like it...new Marshall...etc......and continually complained to me that he couldn't find his sound with these amps...not that they were bad amps, just not delivering the sounds he wanted. On top of that, he was still lugging the amp(s) out at the end of the night, along with his pedals....which he at 1st wanted to avoid having to do. ( This didn't bother him when he was a young man...go figure)

    After I'd had my Mustang III long enough to be familiar with it, I suggested to him that he'd give it a shot. If it worked out, that would get rid of two problems...including the basic pedals. I know this guy well enough to be familiar with the basic tones he's looking for, and who his guitar influences are...and that's important, I think when recommending an amp.

    John has always been a tube guy and not one who'd easily warm up to the idea of playing with a digital modeling amp. He was interested at first after listening to me but had serous doubts after sharing the Mustang concept to his band mates....he got brow beaten and told he might be bringing " a toy" "fake" amp to rehearsal. (Where have we heard this before ?) So now he's getting this stigma thrown at him to beat down his ego...of not using "professional" gear. I told him he was too old and been around too long to get a cork sniffing ego. :cool::rolleyes:

    Putting my own credibility on the line a little bit, I convinced him to give it a shot and I'd walk him though the whole process over the phone and was always available if he got stuck. He seriously doubted that a $300 amp was going to cut it, but he caved in and says gonna hit a music store and pick one up. Instead of the Mustang III, he returned to his home with a Mustang V head with the Mustang 4 x 12 matching cabinet.....o_O

    To him it made sense, he would only be lugging a light weight head out to his car (along with guitar cases) instead of a whole amp with pedals. He thought he needed something that big to handle a couple outdoor gigs they had coming up too. The plan was he'd continuing using a Marshall he'd bought until he was familiar enough to take the Mustang to band rehearsal....fearing that if he struggled with it, his band mates would rake him over the coals. I got him going with the simple amp approach and he took it from there.

    Short story long, he bonded with the amp very well, his band members got an education, and he ended buying a Mustang III v2, which he liked enough to be his number 1. He's worked it regularly now, both in practice and gigs, without a single issue....no tube changes or mods ......and he's a happy camper. If he were to move to another amp.......that's great...whatever is best for each of us. He wouldn't need to justify it me, his wife or anybody else. He's earned that right.......now with me...given our finances..I'd have to seriously justify to my wife a practical reason for spending more on an amp....and the reason better be good:eek:
     
    Last edited: Mar 27, 2017
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  13. fender4life

    fender4life Friend of Leo's

    Sep 18, 2011
    los angeles
    I was the same way as your friend. No desire to buy a modeler and a total tube snob. I'd played a number of modelers in my job which gave me access to some of the line 6 and a few others. Hated each and every one. In fact, the only reason i ended up with one is that one day i went to a GC to try out a guitar i was interested in. The only amp i could quickly find that was plugged in was a mustang. Never even heard of them but i just wanted to get a general idea of how the guitar sounded. It sounded so bad i started messing with settings and found a decent workable tone quickly and as i was evaluating the guitar i was noticing the amp even more because no modeler i had played had tube feel in the least but this did. I bought the guitar but after a couple days i decided it wasn't for me and took it back. But before i did i researched the mustang thinking that as cheap as they were maybe it would be a fun "toy". The reviews were so glowing i figured why not just give it a whirl and return it if it was indeed nothing but a toy. Took the guitar back and told them to exchange it for the stang.

    Thats the only reason i even considered a modeler. And it took a couple weeks before i really dialed it in well enough that i no longer wanted to play my tube stuff. Then over the next few years i got better and better at dialing it in and, well, you know where i stand now ! :D but if not for that fluke i'd still be looking at modelers as our friend here does....a toy. And by the way, it never would have taken me near as long to dial it in to the point i have it now if not for the fact i almost never play out anymore and for the first 2 years i had it i played it out once. So i never was able to really dial it in at band volumes where it needs to be to really find it's best. I think had i still been gigging regularly when i got the mustang i would have been able to dial it in far far quicker. I would have had it sounding great within a few gigs and nailed the best withing a few months of gigs at most. Just hard to do at bedroom levels where you don't have the same type of dynamic as a live stage volume tone.
     
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  14. Jim Dep

    Jim Dep Friend of Leo's

    May 23, 2010
    Northern Colorado
    I think you're exactly right. I don't have that opportunity and I wish I did with this amp. I can make experienced guesses on what tweeks would be needed for presets at stage volume, but playing different rooms with different acoustics is the challenge I miss. The goal was to try to keep the sound consistent from one venue to the next. The more effects added, the greater the challenge...and that was just using one amp, not having the dynamics of several amp models. I'm still locked into the mindset of how an amp will do on stage, even though that's not an issue anymore. I was confident enough that it would do well on stage or I wouldn't have recommended it.
    I read a couple posts elsewhere, saying that the OP played through a Mustang was that was either borrowed or used....of all crazy things...in a backline situation and that the Mustang was incapable of "cutting through the mix". Give me a break.. I know these comments to be BS, even though I haven't used one live, I know and have heard from people who do. The amp is more than capable, but the person who knocks it doesn't seem to take any responsibility. They couldn't get the knack, so that must mean that no one can...when they already know there's people using them live and who are ....happy ?! The issue here is familiarity ....knowing how to use it, which isn't going to happen without a dedicated effort...just common sense,imho. Why should that bother me or make it my business...?..because that BS can influence people of low funds whether or not to pursue getting one....so I'll repeat myself and address it as BS continues to surface.
     
    Last edited: Mar 27, 2017
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  15. fender4life

    fender4life Friend of Leo's

    Sep 18, 2011
    los angeles
    Yeah, the idea the mustang doesn't cut thru the mix is comically absurd IMO. Thats one of the things it does in spades and one of the big 3 or 4 most important details an amp must have to be great. Thats why i keep saying, those who put the mustang down just haven't played one with a patch thats tweaked well. They need to understand that a tube amp is already tweaked for you via the designer's circuit he spend endless hours getting right and the controls are just fine tuning. If the amp is a good one, you can't screw up. The mustang's stock presets yield THE worse amp tones i have ever heard. My best efforts tweaking it have yielded some of the BEST amp tones i've ever heard. We're talking nite and day. So that being the case it should be pretty obvious that those who say things like that are speaking from lack of experience. That being the experience of playing a mustang that's been tweaked properly to give it's best. With a tube amp, if you try one onstage and don't like it you can be pretty sure you have heard what it offers and give a accurate opinion of it. I would be hard pressed to put any stock in the opinion of someone who's only used a mustang a few times or owned one a short time. I believe a lot of owners probably sell them before they find their sound, especially those who try gigging them and don't want to ruin several gigs trying to dial it in onstage. Like i said, thats the advantage of tube amps. You can dial them in at your first gig with them.

    The first gig i did with the mustang was a nightmare ! Tin city. Now it's meat city baby !!!:D
     
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  16. privatesalt

    privatesalt Tele-Meister

    103
    Jan 31, 2014
    Alabama
    I wish Fender would release a VST plugin of the Mustang (for a lesser price). Like Line 6 is about to do with the Helix Native plugin... http://line6.com/helix-native/
    That would be awesome to have a software version of the Mustang. Use for recording or jamming using laptop and powered speakers or headphones. Design presets anywhere with your laptop. That's a lot to wish for though. Probably won't happen.

    I can't wait to demo the Helix Native plugin. It says POD Farm customers are eligible for certain discounts. Here's a cut and paste from the Helix forum....


    HELIX NATIVE FAQ

    Wait… Is this Helix in a plugin?
    Yes. Helix Native features all the amp, cab, and effects models of Helix and Helix Rack, as well as IR loading. Its presets are fully compatible with Helix and Helix Rack hardware so you can effortlessly transfer your tones from the studio to the stage and back again.

    What plug-in formats are supported?
    Mac and Windows, 64-bit VST3/VST2, AU, and AAX.

    Will it work with iLok?
    Helix Native is authorized through Line 6 License Manager which can be downloaded from www.line6.com/software. There is no licensing available through iLok.

    How many computers can I install Helix Native on with a single license?
    Licensing is tied to your Line 6 account and up to four computers can share a single license.

    Is there a demo version to try out?
    A free trial will be made available and is fully functional for 15 days.

    How many parameters can be automated?
    Parameters and/or block bypass states can be automated by assigning them to automation channels in your DAW (up to 16 per instance).

    I don’t get it. Why would you offer all that Helix goodness in a plug-in?
    Because it’s the right thing to do. Helix is all about elegant solutions to musicians’ problems, and the studio-to-stage-and-back promise was too big of a deal not to pursue. Have you ever tried to nail every guitar tone on your record for an upcoming tour? With Helix Native, potentially weeks of work could be condensed down to a minute or two.

    What does Helix Native cost?
    Helix Native sells for $399 USD. However, to hammer home the whole studio-to-stage thing, we’re offering a discount to registered Helix and Helix Rack owners; they can purchase Helix Native for $99. Existing POD Farm customers are eligible for certain discounts as well (TBD).

    When and where?
    Helix Native will be available on the Line 6 store (https://store.line6.com) in Spring of 2017
     
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  17. Jim Dep

    Jim Dep Friend of Leo's

    May 23, 2010
    Northern Colorado
    We'll see what Fender comes up with in their next round of modeling amps. Maybe they'll do the same thing with the factory presets.....crank up the gain and crank up all the effects so guitar players with discriminating tastes know that they can get their money's worth...:D
     
  18. foundjoe

    foundjoe Tele-Holic

    623
    Apr 28, 2013
    Kansas
    Amplitube has an authorized Fender bundle, which is virtually the same as what a Mustang plug-in would be (pun intended). There wouldn't be much incentive for Fender to recreate that wheel and there may be contractual obligations to prevent them from competing directly with Amplitube. Using the Mustang with Fuse accomplishes the same general purpose as it is.
     
  19. The Blood

    The Blood TDPRI Member

    79
    Dec 31, 2014
    Healdsburg, CA
    It must be interesting to be a fender employee who's reading these posts, as I would expect to be the case, and not to be able to comment in any way.
     
  20. musicalmartin

    musicalmartin Poster Extraordinaire

    Age:
    69
    Aug 8, 2007
    Norfolk UK
    I have several "modelling " amps .A THR 10C and a new Champion 40 plus a crapped out mustang 1 V1 .I tend to ignore the modelling aspect altogther and just set some nice tones I want which both the amps do well .What it says on the label I have no interest in ,mainly as I dont really know what the "proper" amps sound like .As there is no Champ 600 ,Laney LC15 or Ibanez TSA or going back in time 64 Ampeg ReverbRocket or Watkins Westminster I cant mentally compare .I did use huge SS Marshall 100 watters with 4x10 cabs at studio jam sessions but didnt note the settings or what was what ,just dialled in a decent sound .Thats all we can ask of any amp .A decent sound that we like .
     
  21. Jim Dep

    Jim Dep Friend of Leo's

    May 23, 2010
    Northern Colorado
    Agree and I think...can almost guarantee that getting these kinds of tones with " just a click of the mouse" is what causes resentment from tube purists and tube amp techs that refuse to except that this is now possible. For us that like to do some serious editing of presets, there's lots of clicks that go into the process before the ONE click brings the custom presets up. I can be understanding with tube purists to a point but when bogus , drive by sniping starts with trigger words like " toy" and "fake", that's when it gets tough for me not to respond....as though we have no right to question their judgement and presentations of so called facts and truth.
     
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