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Asher Guitars WD Music Products Amplified Parts Mod Kits DIY Nordstarnd Pickups Warmoth.com

the difference between paper and oil caps and the orange drop types??

Discussion in 'Tele-Technical' started by rjtwangs, Aug 3, 2017.

  1. rjtwangs

    rjtwangs Tele-Holic Ad Free Member

    Age:
    70
    607
    Jan 18, 2010
    Reston, Virginia
    Well I apologize if this has been talked to death but I couldn't find anything....I want to know the difference between the orange drop types and the paper and oil caps, and Glendale has paper and foil?....is it all just a matter of preference? What should I use to just get a great tele sound....without getting into the type of music and all that, is there one that you would use in your own tele and why?? I'm getting confused...I am not a technical person but I want to learn more....sorry if this post is in the wrong place, if so, please move it to where it should be....thanks...hoping to learn....


    RJ
     

  2. luckett

    luckett Tele-Afflicted

    Jun 14, 2011
    .
    I depends on what kind of tone wood your body is made from.
     
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  3. JD0x0

    JD0x0 Friend of Leo's

    Age:
    27
    Feb 22, 2009
    New York
    We're talking about guitars?

    PIO offers nothing but placebo/mojo. They are generally more expensive and will leak as they age.

    Poly caps are more stable. Generally, tighter tolerances from the factory and less variance with temp and humidity. They also 'age' better in that they generally dont leak as often as Paper in oil caps.


    Tone is in the cap's value, in this case. It's a passive filter. In guitar amps, cap composition makes a bigger difference. In guitars, the cap's value is what's important. Any more claims than that, you're being sold snake oil.

    So to reiterate. Cap composition doesn't matter in guitars. Focus on measured value of capacitance. Cap composition in amplifiers will make a small difference, but again, VALUE is more important than composition. I could type for 45 minutes about cap composition in amps, but it really makes zero difference in a guitar. People obsess about caps too much in guitars, and often never even intentionally change the cap's value, thinking cap type will handle the sonic changes. IMO, this is totally wrong.


    Also, remember the cap does not really affect tone until the tone control is rolled back significantly (more than half way) I often see the misconception and claims that people believe it affects their tone with the knob on '10' This further confirms how big of a factor placebo seems to be, here.

    If putting what you perceive to be a 'fancy' cap in your guitar makes you feel better, and more enthusiastic about playing, go for it! It hurts nothing but your wallet.

    Personally, my preference is Polypropylene composition. This would be 715P model 'Orange Drop' (There's different 'Orange Drop' caps 6PS series are Polyester composition for example)
    My reason for Polypropylene is that they have the tightest tolerances (+/-5%) and are most stable in different environments. At the very least, this offers more tonal consistency than other cap types, as the Polypropylene will drift less.
    They're also fairly compact for their voltage ratings, and you dont have to worry about them aging.

    Ceramic caps are cheapest cost. Usually you can get them under $.30 cents a piece. That's considerably cheaper than what most people will pay for paper in oil caps.
     
    Last edited: Aug 3, 2017
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  4. Teleterr

    Teleterr Friend of Leo's

    Feb 7, 2011
    Lewes De.
    There are cap threads here w extensive debate about whether how its made effect the sound. Having never liked tone controls I read it without a dog in the fight. Since then I got a '52 RI Tele and am using the tone controls a lot. None of my other guitars had oil caps, so now I m thinking theres something to it. Graphs show frequency response etc. to be the same, but maybe its a weird way the phase shifts or harmonic relationships changes or something.
     
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  5. rjtwangs

    rjtwangs Tele-Holic Ad Free Member

    Age:
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    607
    Jan 18, 2010
    Reston, Virginia
    Thanks for reply, I know that I'm making myself crazy...I really never cared about such things, when I used to do a lot of touring I had a tech who took care of my guitars...he asked me one day if I wanted him to change my pots and caps...I had no idea what he was talking about, and I didn't care...as long as the guitar sounds good to ME, and plays well, I'm a happy camper. Well, I'm now retired and apparently have too much time on my hands...so I've been wondering if I missed something all these years where I didn't care, and now I am totally confused....orange drops( sounds like candy )paper and oil or paper and FOIL!!! I'm pulling my hair out!!! Well I have orange drops in one so maybe I'll try paper in oil in the tele being built for me out at MJT...just to see if I hear anything different....I know....you think I'm nut....so do I....ugh...

    RJ
     
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  6. rjtwangs

    rjtwangs Tele-Holic Ad Free Member

    Age:
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    607
    Jan 18, 2010
    Reston, Virginia
    How do I find the cap threads...I can't seem to find a way to search topics??

    RJ
     

  7. rjtwangs

    rjtwangs Tele-Holic Ad Free Member

    Age:
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    Jan 18, 2010
    Reston, Virginia
    Why does the wood matter?? Is there a difference in the sound between Alder, Ash, and or Pine?

    RJ
     
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  8. Old Tele man

    Old Tele man Tele-Afflicted

    May 10, 2017
    Tucson, AZ
    Paper caps were original "sealed" in wax, which obviously isn't good in a hot chassis (especially in underhood automotive applications).

    Oil-filled caps were intended for high-power transmitter use, where high-voltage "flyback" often "zapped" regular capacitors, but simply "self-healed" as the 'hole' in the oil replenished itself (albeit with a pin-hole in foil, thus slightly reducing total surface area); weak point was their glass enclosure to contain the oil.

    Orange Drop caps are ceramic-dipped, solving the "humidity" problem of paper capacitors, as well as the fragility of the glass enclosure oil-filled caps.
     

  9. Teleterr

    Teleterr Friend of Leo's

    Feb 7, 2011
    Lewes De.
    lol I ve never been able to use site search . usually I just google it, tho that might not give results in this case.
     
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  10. Teleterr

    Teleterr Friend of Leo's

    Feb 7, 2011
    Lewes De.
    Google tdpri capacitor threads.
     
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  11. bottlenecker

    bottlenecker Tele-Holic

    915
    Dec 6, 2015
    Wisconsin
    I was just searching this very thing an hour ago. I used the search on this site for "tone pot capacitors". Lots of stuff.
    I'm replacing a pot in a 55 year old hollowbody and I don't want to fish the wiring out and back in any time soon so I decided to replace the PIO cap. From reading, I don't think PIO will make a difference to the sound. I will probably buy an orange drop because lots of people like them and it's all cheap anyway.
     

  12. rjtwangs

    rjtwangs Tele-Holic Ad Free Member

    Age:
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    607
    Jan 18, 2010
    Reston, Virginia
    Does anyone here use the paper and oil caps or the paper and foil caps from Glendale guitars? If so do you hear/notice a difference in the sound of your guitar? Trying to decide on paper and oil, foil or stick with the orange drops??

    RJ
     

  13. BryMelvin

    BryMelvin Tele-Afflicted

    Age:
    65
    Jan 4, 2014
    Arivaca AZ
    Paper and oil are obsolete technology that isn't made by current tech companies. Indeed the oil in most of the old ones is illegal and not used anymore (PCB).It worked in the forties and fifties but has been superseded.

    Orange drops etc are current technology.

    Vintage looks would be the primary reason to keep paper and oil.
     
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  14. rjtwangs

    rjtwangs Tele-Holic Ad Free Member

    Age:
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    Jan 18, 2010
    Reston, Virginia
    Who would care how they look, you NEVER see them??? Glendale sells them( paper & foil ) for $35.99 each....Stew Mac and Angela both are $17.99 for the paper and oil....

    RJ
     

  15. Nickfl

    Nickfl Tele-Holic

    643
    May 24, 2016
    Florida
    The oil in the paper in oil caps is definitely serpent based...
     
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  16. Old Tele man

    Old Tele man Tele-Afflicted

    May 10, 2017
    Tucson, AZ
    Yeah, that herpetological oil can be dangerous if spilled, depending upon whether it was a pit-viper or garden snake (wink,wink).
     
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  17. Nickfl

    Nickfl Tele-Holic

    643
    May 24, 2016
    Florida
    Seriously though, possibly literally every other variable makes more difference than the guitar tone caps... The guitar in general is less responsible for your tone than the amp, and the pickups and their placement are the primary variable on the guitar itself. Do you dial back your tone control much? If so then a different tone cap value may be of interest, but if not the tone cap is of no consequence. Just cause its called a "tone" cap doesn't mean it has much to do with your overall tone!
     
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  18. telemnemonics

    telemnemonics Poster Extraordinaire

    Age:
    57
    Mar 2, 2010
    Maine
    Who cares how they look?
    That is a question best answered by reading threads where certain kinds of forum members obsess about the idea and appearance of superior quality and MOJO.

    A very simple fact that might help sort out cap comp for your own satisfaction, is that in an amp, the signal you hear that results in "your sound" passes through the cap and you later hear the signal that passed through the cap amplified and driving your speaker, so there is good reason it might effect the sound.
    In the passive tone control circuit we use in electric guitars, the signal that passes through the cap goes to ground, so we never hear it.

    Paying $17.99 or $35.99 for the cap in your guitar tone control is all about appearance, so look closely and take some pics before screwing down the control plate.
     
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  19. rjtwangs

    rjtwangs Tele-Holic Ad Free Member

    Age:
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    Jan 18, 2010
    Reston, Virginia
    Your last sentence has me laughing here....too funny....I would like to hear from someone who LOVES and hears a difference with the paper and oil/foil....so I might as well stick with the orange drops....thanks for your reply....it actually makes sense to me.....


    RJ
     
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  20. telemnemonics

    telemnemonics Poster Extraordinaire

    Age:
    57
    Mar 2, 2010
    Maine
    I'll add that we can't really fault the companies that sell such products, because guitar players are showmen and show women, and need to look like the entertainers they have to be to develop and keep a following.
    Bright colors, chrome plating, patterned and leather pickguards, tooled leather straps with sterling buckles etc etc.
    We buy stuff that does nothing for our sound or music, and it's trickled down into the dark cavities inside our guitars.

    Then add in the debate over how much the guitar itself (as in the wooden parts that make up 90% of a guitar) actually influences its own sound, and you can see how PIO gets mixed in with tonewood and nitro as being important to our "tone".

    Same with the higher priced polished specialty metals aftermarket bridge craze.
    Very little of those products improve our sound over stock Tele parts, though saddle material is a legit (IMO) alteration.
    Jazzmasters also benefit from higher quality aftermarket bridges and parts, because the original designs have some pretty serious inherent problems.
    If it's good for the Jazzmaster it must be good for the Tele?
     
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