Students who benefitted from bribes in admissions scandal.

Discussion in 'Bad Dog Cafe' started by Larry F, Mar 19, 2019.

  1. chris m.

    chris m. Poster Extraordinaire

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    Teachers in the US are horribly underpaid for what we expect them to do. So while they have unions in my mind their unions have
    not resulted in any kind of unfair pay situation. Yes there are horror stories about tenure issues, and buildings in NY where they house
    poor performers because they can't fire them. Those situations need to be fixed but we shouldn't use those examples to pillory the
    whole field when the vast majority are doing an incredibly hard job that is incredibly important for terribly low pay.

    I would actually consider teaching science and math as a second career-- I'm eligible to retire soon-- but the pay is too low to make
    it very tempting. When I was in high school (graduated 1980) it was possible for a family to have a solid middle class life with one
    parent teaching and the other parent being a stay home Mom or Dad. And so all of my science and math teachers had at least master's
    degrees, and often Ph.D.'s, from institutions like MIT, Purdue, Cornell, etc. Our AP calculus teacher knew calculus as well as I know how
    to add two numbers. It was child's play for her since she had a Ph.D. from MIT in mathematics. With this kind of deep knowledge she was
    able to teach it very clearly. But how many Ph.D.'s in mathematics would be willing to work for teacher pay today? Rather than blame
    the teachers, I blame the system.

    Bottom line for the USA is our K-12 system is really messed up. Our university system has issues but is still the envy of the world. Our
    K-12 system, not so much. Doubling teacher pay and doubling investment in school infrastructure and operating budgets would certainly
    be a good start, IMO.
     
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  2. maxvintage

    maxvintage Friend of Leo's

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    All the people here talking about how college is useless and a scam and etc: I teach US history for a living, at a University. I have a Ph.D. in it. Do you think learning history is a waste of time? Or do you think you can learn all the history you need from the History Channel?

    It's a serious question. You can claim that "people like me" don't teach it right, but of course you have no idea what goes in in my class or anybody else's, except crap you read on web sites designed to wind you up.

    Tonight I'm teaching a grad class about Claude Shannon and the history of Information Theory as part of a course that covers the history of digital computing in the Cold War. My class has socialists and Trump supporters: two active duty Naval officers and a 60 year old rock drummer who owns a nightclub; high school teachers and retired lawyers. Do you think this is all a waste of time, and nobody should know about who Claude Shannon was and how the internet and digital computing was developed during the Cold War? Google it: does it seem interesting? (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Claude_Shannon) I mean all he did was invent binary computing oh and also digital sampling theory which makes computer based audio possible.

    I mean granted, you don't need to know this to do drywall, or lay pipe, but I'll go out on a limb and say that if you do sheetrock for a living the worst that could happen if you took the course would be you'd know a lot more. Heavens! What a scam!

    The class is lively and congenial and everybody seems to enjoy it. Most state universities have generous programs to allow retirees to audit courses for little or no cost. you could actually take a class. Or you could just get wound up by some jackass website.
     
    Last edited: Mar 21, 2019
  3. JuneauMike

    JuneauMike Friend of Leo's

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    I would argue that you do need to know history to do drywall and lay pipe. Because drywall installers and plumbers also vote, and pay taxes, and read the paper, and help their kids with homework, and participate in our society. And when they have a solid background in history and civics and math and English (including some introduction to the classics) they are better citizens, they raise more well adjusted kids and they don't get wound up by jackass websites nearly as easy as they might otherwise.


    BTW, has anyone seen where I left my -- oh, there it is, right there below me.


     
  4. getbent

    getbent Telefied Ad Free Member

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    I'd argue that my command of history allowed me to lay pipe while in college. four score and all that!
     
  5. blowtorch

    blowtorch Telefied Ad Free Member

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    That's a good question, given what we are often expected to accept as fact for any given "history", being written by the victors, and all that.
    And the biases and just plain inaccuracies, I mean Chris Columbus, right? :confused:
     
  6. D_W_PGH

    D_W_PGH Friend of Leo's

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    First man on the American moon!
     
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  7. D_W_PGH

    D_W_PGH Friend of Leo's

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    There are Lincoln groupies?
     
  8. otterhound

    otterhound Poster Extraordinaire

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    Where will the money come from ?
     
  9. Sax-son

    Sax-son TDPRI Member

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    This is nothing new under the sun and just might be the tip of the iceberg. Back in the early 1970's I was attended UCLA and it was kicking my ass. It seems like I was working overtime to keep up. I knew a certain young female that came from an uber rich family and she had plenty of money at her disposal. She was an intelligent person in her own right, but I had later heard that she hired a scholar to attend the classes for her and she earned a Bachelors degree with minimal attendance. I knew from that period forward that the system was not fair.

    However, someone else had made the statement "So what, how much pride can a person really have if they know deep inside that they really didn't earn it". I guess there is the sense of self gratification when you know you did it all yourself, no matter how hard it was.
     
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  10. getbent

    getbent Telefied Ad Free Member

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    whoa, you knew heather locklear???? cool!
     
  11. chris m.

    chris m. Poster Extraordinaire

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    Per capita investment in schools used to be much higher. We just need to get back to where it was about 40 yrs ago. Pay to educate kids now or watch our country go down the drain later.
     
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  12. ronzhd

    ronzhd Tele-Meister

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    I am going to have to respectfully disagree.
    https://observer.com/2018/.../how-american-students-truly-rank-in-international-testin...

    38th in math alone. We have issues with our education system. I think teachers deserve more money across the board, and families need to realize that we have a responsibility to our children's education as well. We should be able to compete on a global level, some where, some way, we have been surpassed.
     
  13. Owenmoney

    Owenmoney Tele-Afflicted

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    I respect your position honestly, there are a lot of problems here in Pennsylvania schools, I attended every teacher meeting , parents night and helped guide my children in their education , what I came across was teachers who didn’t really teach, but just assign work. When asked a question they didn’t have answers on the lessons they assigned. Now in my opinion, just my opinion, if you’re teaching something, and are asked a question about the thing you assigned, you better have an answer or you’re not really teaching. That’s where my opinions on the subject started. In southeastern Pa, it’s become commonplace for teachers to strike right before the beginning of the school year. It’s also become commonplace for teachers to refuse to pay for their health care even though nearly every other citizen is paying at least part of theirs.
    I’ve said several times before, I love this forum, we can disagree on things but it’s almost always still very civil. The rest of the world could benefit from these types of exchanges.
     
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  14. chris m.

    chris m. Poster Extraordinaire

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    I’m sure different states and even different districts or schools within districts have varying situations. Which is part of the problem: other countries are able to ensure (and fund) more consistent outcomes across their entire nation.
     
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  15. Owenmoney

    Owenmoney Tele-Afflicted

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    I like good kids, well behaved, respectful, like I had to be when I was a kid. I don’t like spoiled, disrespectful kids. I wouldn’t want to be a teacher either.
     
  16. Larry F

    Larry F Doctor of Teleocity Vendor Member

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    Super cool about Info Theory. Leonard Meyer wrote some interesting books on info theory in music. I have had a feeling for this as a way of analyzing music for almost 40 years. But few other music theorists picked up the mantle. It informs my music and my teaching (and blues soloing), but I didn't pursue it far enough to formalize it in musical terms. Music, the Arts, and Ideas is Meyer's best work and predicts post-modernism in 1967.
     
  17. Owenmoney

    Owenmoney Tele-Afflicted

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    No I agree I’m not teacher material in the sense you mean, however I have taught my kids well. I’ve taught people I worked with , and I’ve trained horses and dogs and I’ve done it without demeaning them, punishing them or treating them badly in any way. My biggest fault is I’m very opinionated, as is just about every other person on this forum. I believe you teach and lead by example. I treat people with respect until they show no respect in return. I’m honest, dependable and polite. I’m patient with people willing to learn, and patient with horses and dogs. Horses are the easiest to deal with. I’ll take them over people seven days a week !
     
  18. imwjl

    imwjl Poster Extraordinaire

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    The trend is not as you say. The requirements to be a teacher have been reduced in places, and if not those new standards in public schools via more private schools and home schooling. It's a challenging mess where you can have a very poor district or a place struggling to fill a job were lower standards can help fill the seat, but you also have advanced kids who are failed by that.
     
  19. D_W_PGH

    D_W_PGH Friend of Leo's

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    I think what you're seeing with math teachers having PhDs in high schools is that it's far easier to be a math teacher than it is to be a math professor at a research university.

    When I was in college, one of my professors was there on a grant. She had a two year position for $35,000, a guarantee that she wouldn't have a job after that (she wasn't eligible to become an assitant professor) and despite doing well earning her PhD, she had only received two offers for positions out of 95 attempts at various openings.

    WE had a phd mathematician at my high school, also. High school teachers make more than college math professors and they have a shorter tenure to full retirement and better retirement benefits.

    If there isn't direct competition for you in the private industry, colleges won't pay you much.

    If you think about it, it wouldn't make sense for all of those doctorate holders to migrate to high schools if it wasn't a better position than chasing professorship.
     
  20. otterhound

    otterhound Poster Extraordinaire

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    Get a higher degree and you will make more money tends to be the mantra .
    Where is the truth ?
     
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