Students who benefitted from bribes in admissions scandal.

Discussion in 'Bad Dog Cafe' started by Larry F, Mar 19, 2019.

  1. Owenmoney

    Owenmoney Tele-Afflicted

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    I happened to be hired by one of the people I really respected, I learned my job from one of the other people I really respected. I really liked my job, I was very well respected ted by the people I needed to be respected by. I basically only really answered to people I respected, but corporate level big wigs would routinely hire under qualified people just out of college, I stayed. Because I liked the challenge of my job and the advancements I got based on my own initiat8ves. I had a blast, and wrote my own job description.
     
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  2. maxvintage

    maxvintage Friend of Leo's

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    Not complicated. If they are in school expell them. If they graduated and are earning money, fine them and use the money to set up a scholarship for kids without money
     
  3. maxvintage

    maxvintage Friend of Leo's

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    When was the last time you actually attended classes at a university? Was there a first time?

    You’re repeating cliches,
     
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  4. boris bubbanov

    boris bubbanov Telefied Ad Free Member

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    I don't know if these would be students are accomplices, or not. Some 17-18 year olds, even some 19 year olds need to stay with High School, because they're too protected and really just not ready to be making decisions on their own and if they do attend college classes, they should do it in some kind of monitored environment. Daddy or Mommy + Daddy make all their decisions and they just go where they're told to go. IMO some of these young people are under the thumb of a dominant SOB type of parent and don't get any input. It would take immense character to stand up to a parent in this situation, and wouldn't you know it, the sort of kids that need the help are the ones the parents tend to be most anxious about.

    So, sure there's a theft, but let's put this on the heads of the adults, and only blame the kids who are clearly, dead in the middle of the scheme.

    +

    Oh, and let's don't cry over the kids "on the bubble". If you really deserve to be in that class, why aren't your numbers good enough that you got chosen first? IMO the reputations of schools are made on the first 2/3rds of the applicants chosen. Not on the "consolation prize" applicants anyway.
     
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  5. chris m.

    chris m. Poster Extraordinaire

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    For the posts claiming that idiots with bachelors’ degrees are being hired to senior positions- could just be the next phase of the process where elite, connected parents land a plum spot for Johnny after he graduates.
     
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  6. Owenmoney

    Owenmoney Tele-Afflicted

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    Very good points Bubba, so many kids today are so overprotected they can’t cross the street by themselves. Before I retired I saw parents drive their kids, middle school and high school kid, forty yards down the driveway to wait for the school bus and actually drive back to the house after the kid got on the bus. Come now, walk yourself the forty yards down the driveway. And kids have play dates now, when I was a kid my parents saw me for dinner, and after dark thirty, and first thing in the morning. I was loved and allowed independence, and my parents were parents not my friends . They didn’t monitor every aspect of my life. They gave me boundaries and expectations and I developed a strong sense of who and what I was and still am.
    My one supervisor still had kids in diapers at four years old, his wife stayed at home, both had MBA degrees in education, he wanted to be a teacher so he would have summers off. Not because of a strong desire to educate, but he couldn’t even manage to teach his kids to go potty. I know this because he told me. My kids were started potty training the day they started walking. Kids will learn very fast given the opportunity. It’s also important for parents to listen to their kids desires, what they want to be. Let them find their niche without the parents desires pushing them where they want them to be. I want a doctor who wants to be a doctor, not someone who wanted to be a musician. Not everybody is suited for college, I wasn’t, my desire was to make things with my hands and my brain, not sit in an office. That’s just me, if I had an office job I would either kill myself or somebody else.
     
  7. Guitarteach

    Guitarteach Poster Extraordinaire

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    Scratch this one.... but then how far do you go?

    The whole sporting side of ‘some’ top Universities is constructed as a mechanism to get rich people’s waster kids from the top fee paying feeder schools in below the bar set for the rest of the kids.

    The elite ones will throw the odd bone to a disadvantaged community and hope no one looks too close. I have been in meetings with that exact ‘widening participation while not upsetting the applecart’’ agenda in one of our ‘Oxbridge’ Unis recently. It is under intense gov’t focus at the moment and everyone is waiting for the spotlight to move away.

    But there are even more layers and depths to the corruption if you dig.

    The ‘essay writing’ and ‘value add translation services’ mentioned are absolutely rife. There is a whole hidden economy that the entrepreneurial, brighter students are involved with. A close relative makes a lot of extra cash helping foreign students do their coursework at his top Uni - ‘proofreading’ by peers is allowed by the Uni and that is what he does, but the line between just reworking grammar and language and correcting stuff, is very blurred. With foreign students bringing four or five times more money into a top University there is absolutely no incentive to stop it either.

    Any system based on rewards or promises of rewards will be gamed to the limit by nearly every single stakeholder and corrupted by many.

    That said, I don’t agree that University is all bad - my own kids have incredible access to people, perspectives and other ideas, skills, knowledge, technologies and research and can partake in opportunities that have the potential to change the world, esp. the research my daughter is doing on the genetics of cancer and rare diseases, that are simply not profitable for big pharma to look at or that could not be done anywhere else.

    The big research Unis do some truly amazing stuff that impacts all our lives but for many outside it, Uni’s can just look like a school with an exam output.

    In the case of these kids I’d look at the courses they are going to. Are they going for easy ones looking for an easy way through to a qualification or are they investing their lives in the core disciplines?

    I suspect they are going for easy all the way... but I blame the parents and the model of parenting they chose, not the kids, who must get every second chance they can get to put it right and walk away proud of themselves, even if not proud of their parents.
     
    Last edited: Mar 21, 2019
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  8. Boubou

    Boubou Doctor of Teleocity Gold Supporter

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    Over 27 years of corporate work I have only had college graduate as “supervisors”.
    Few of them knew how to manage people because their strong point was science, not management. Some were excellent at managing and at science, not enough of them.
    A college degree does not make you a supervisor, however the field of work requires a college degree.
    I have had the pleasure of working with people who were geniuses in their field and were useless at managing.
    Just suck it up
    P.S.:
    Did I mention the a$$kissers?
    They are everywhere
     
    Last edited: Mar 21, 2019
  9. Skamania

    Skamania Tele-Meister Platinum Supporter

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    I went to a community college for the first two years of college. Then went to one of the colleges in the news.

    I wrote my application and graduated and have worked every year since and I’m ready to retire.

    The kids involved in the scandal should be kicked at the end of the semester or right away. Any credits they have can be used at a State College or another university.
     
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  10. D_W_PGH

    D_W_PGH Friend of Leo's

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    School taught me my profession, and I had some exceptional professors who were very interested in teaching me to think rather than just cover their course work. As in, to realize that you can research and solve a problem on your own rather than waiting for someone else to tell you how to do it.

    From my perspective, that stuff is all there. Half the cost that's been added since I was in school is fluff, though, and doesn't affect the course work.
     
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  11. D_W_PGH

    D_W_PGH Friend of Leo's

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    the good old fashioned way of just thinking clear black and white brought us things like propaganda about poor aircraft designs, throwing men to the wolves with torpedos that didn't detonate, etc.

    I'm watching my daughter operate now (she's in 3rd grade) and I'm not seeing the kids who can't do basic math, but I see a lot of kids in third grade putting together presentations on powerpoint. I'm sure some will get older and not be able to make change, but they won't even be using change. And someone who can make change in their heads but not code will be left out in the cold.

    And at some point, they will complain about the next generation, too.
     
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  12. D_W_PGH

    D_W_PGH Friend of Leo's

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    Most of these are private businesses. I'm not sure I want a situation where we start determining "what's right" for them when they are actually businesses and none of us is going to go out of pocket to support them.

    Different at a state level where a school is a land grant university or state school. I think the legacy admissions tarnishes their credibility, but it also puts the school in line for money and the credible things they do are heavily funded by it. There is probably some benefit to having influential individuals and their kids at a school, even if the average standardized score isn't as high, too. If five Presidents and 100 senators went to your college, but they averaged 150 points lower on their SATs than the non-legacy population, you're still better off as a school for having that notoriety. Even with the high academic achievers.
     
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  13. D_W_PGH

    D_W_PGH Friend of Leo's

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    The compensation and representation varies from state to state. Teachers live better than almost anyone else (my judgement), though, all things considered. It's not an easy job, and it's not without landmines or dealing with someone telling you that they can pay a top of the payscale teacher $110k in some districts, and then "we don't have aides for you, nobody wants to work for $11 an hour as an aide", etc.

    And in other states, the payscale and the benefits are crap. If you're dealing with teachers in the northeast or a lot of the rustbelt where benefits are common and governments are old, they live well.

    My parents retired at 54 and are still net saving every month. They worked about 185 days a year, not at all during the summer (they never pondered their job from about June 5 to August 20), got retiree medical and have been getting $7500 a month from the state as a pair for more than 15 years now.

    But, my mother saw ever increasing paperwork, a district with low resources and bad students (still good pay and benefits), trouble with losing friends who crossed the union - those folks find themselves out of a job. And my dad had kids steal his clothes (he was a phys-ed teacher) and being in a rural district, I don't have enough fingers to count the number of times a kid took a swing at him. I guess being in gym class gets the juices flowing and there's always someone who wants to show the teacher who's boss. Dad lost the ability to swing back somewhere around 1990 - I remember it well, because what was normally open and shut prior suddenly turned into a job threat.

    The reason I say teachers live better is that they live longer on average than any other significantly large group of people than I can think of. And that's a pretty good indicator of quality of life.

    Just as other people tend to minimize the strife in life and work that teachers face, teachers tend to minimize the strife and hours that other folks have to deal with. I never bring the subject up with my parents, but quite often I hear about "their gift that other people don't have, and how they served, and how they sacrificed", and my mother's next sentence is how people who work in the private sector are just taking other peoples' money all day.

    (despite the great career my parents had, I don't have any interest in being a teacher and never did. Simple reason - I don't like other peoples kids very much. I definitely wouldn't want to be a teacher in a "new" state where teachers tend to have crappy pay and crappy benefits on top of dealing with other peoples' kids, and thus other people whose kids cause problems).
     
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  14. JuneauMike

    JuneauMike Friend of Leo's

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    Hello everyone. I'll just put this thing down over here and be on my way. Whew!, heavy.













    Have a nice day.

     
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  15. imwjl

    imwjl Poster Extraordinaire

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    That's great that your parents worked in an era that's far from common now. My state considered one of the better has an average less than half of that and the teachers are close to 9 years into a world with considerably less benefits. If I recall the average was around $58 grand with around 30 states quite a bit lower than most.

    Friends and family in states where there were labor issues in recent times didn't consider the kids out of class for a while anything like they were glad to start reversing a trend but they are all middle class and don't have schools as their day care.

    Even my state's average $53 g isn't so high because of home prices and our higher than average property taxes. It's lucky my wife and many truly wanted to teach kids because she's proficient in 5 languages, science, math, and was a high grade point student at a top university. She'd be making an easy 100% more in other jobs.

    I'll confess that part of what got me back in college and finishing was one of my best high school teachers. When he learned my path a few years after high school he was PISSED OFF and told me to get my act together. It wasn't just my liking the girls on campus or tired of graveyard shift that did it. My thinking is most of us have had a few truly great teachers and we need to support the institutions just so we all have a chance for some of them influencing our lives.

    Regardless, most educators do a good job, and it's really important to support the institutions.
     
  16. blowtorch

    blowtorch Telefied Ad Free Member

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    Blowtorch says, we think quoting oneself smacks of self-importance, and if one is to do it, it's best to use the royal "we", for the full effect
     
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  17. JuneauMike

    JuneauMike Friend of Leo's

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    I only speak of myself in the third person when it's meal time. And when I run out of beer. And when I'm unhappy. And pouting. And awake. Wait, I think I may have a problem. Crap. Juneaumike not happy!
     
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  18. D_W_PGH

    D_W_PGH Friend of Leo's

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    It varies a lot within the state here. I might live in teacher utopia, though. My township has an average house price of about $220k (that's probably median) and a terminal teachers' salary after 20 years of about $105k. Good middle income parents in general (take that for what it's worth - lack of parenting is a problem, but so are helicopter parents who just can't believe their little gift isn't as gifted as they thought).

    My mothers' district is about 80% of that, and in more of a developed rural area. Houses are about the same but there are fewer places to waste money and more discount shopping opportunities.

    If you get a two-parent household with two teachers in a district like mine, you can live better than I can with a single income, no pension and a supposedly higher status job.

    I did date a girl in college who couldn't get a teaching job in PA, and she went to colonial beach, va and had a job that was for the current equivalent of about $40K. She was irate, and I asked her if she wasn't thinking of the pay scale. She said (and I never checked her on it) that in her district, there was no pay scale. She's probably back in PA now.

    My daughter's teachers have been superstars. In the developed rural area where I grew up, many weren't. There's no differentiation.

    BIL took over for a high school music teacher out of college, and he is a superstar squared, but the guy before him was collecting a check for ten years. He'd checked out, left the music program in a mess and told my BIL over and over that teaching was a lost cause because the behavior of the students is bad. There should've been a way to get him out, but there wasn't.

    The life expectancy is a big indicator of how good or not good a job is, though. Teachers live longer than any profession that I can think of (i'm sure if you find something small and exclusive - like polo team owners, you'll find longer life expectancy), and that's a big indicator of just how good the job is.

    For someone in a low paying area, the reality is that you can move. I had to. Around here, many of the new teachers out of college are really put off by the idea that they might have to move, but pretty much everyone else does.

    We're in a different era now, though, too. When I was a kid, if both parents were teachers (many were married in my district), they had kids and went back to work. It's not uncommon now for teachers to start, save money voraciously (SIL did this) and then not return to work. BIL is still at work, and SIL isn't going back. My mother would never have stood for that - living in a single income household.

    Times change.

    Each of us has an idealized view of what certain jobs are like, but I'll tell you for sure I'd never want to be:
    * a surgeon or any kind of medical director
    * a partner at a corporate law firm

    Too much collateral damage.
     
  19. D_W_PGH

    D_W_PGH Friend of Leo's

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    anything else would be undude. very undude.
     
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  20. D_W_PGH

    D_W_PGH Friend of Leo's

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    I wouldn't be so sure, by the way. Add total pay together with benefits before comparing numbers, too. My parents always said the same thing, but they valued their personal time and over the course of a year, teaching gives you a lot of it.

    They wouldn't have done as well (let alone better) anywhere else.
     
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