Students who benefitted from bribes in admissions scandal.

Discussion in 'Bad Dog Cafe' started by Larry F, Mar 19, 2019.

  1. imwjl

    imwjl Poster Extraordinaire

    Posts:
    6,789
    Joined:
    Mar 21, 2007
    Location:
    My mom's basement.
    Yes, I'm not sure how you would or should negate the person who's done something such as pass the CPA exam, a state bar, achieve medical fellowship or really be an engineer.

    Some of this is selfish but I also think of my daughter and her friends and the part-time student workers I see on the job. My daughter is a senior and our family not qualifying for charity but absolutely all working for things to be better. My daughter's held 4.0, passed the AP exams, lettered in sports and had two part-time jobs all through high school. We sacrificed a lot to move from a deteriorating neighborhood to a top school district. Where I work there are grocery stores, cafes and kitchen where students work.

    One of my siblings married someone who won the birth lottery and has two very accomplished of 3 decent kids. They worked hard at school, they really have no idea how hard some work. Even when not cheating, I've faced parents surprised that we are not using consultants like they are. I do wonder about fairness to the hard working kids.

    My other concern for all of this is the institution bashing. As much as there was b.s. in my getting a degree, it was valuable. I have 3 kids who remembered we moved from a crappy neighborhood and they know what their mother faces teaching in a big city school. They're looking at the schools as institutions not just to get ahead but also about general excellence. We should be somewhat careful about bashing the institutions overall.
     
  2. tery

    tery Poster Extraordinaire Silver Supporter

    Posts:
    8,317
    Joined:
    Sep 21, 2012
    Location:
    Tennessee
    Cheats & Cheaters :(:mad: … its not OK .
     
    Owenmoney, rad1 and rob5755 like this.
  3. boneyguy

    boneyguy Doctor of Teleocity

    Age:
    61
    Posts:
    11,453
    Joined:
    Mar 31, 2007
    Location:
    victoria b.c. CANADA
    I'll admit that I haven't been following this very closely so I may be way off the mark but why does it seem I am only reading about consequences for the parents and students involved? Why is there no, or very little IMO, focus on consequences for the universities that fully participated in this? Or have I got that wrong? Are they not both equally complicit?
     
  4. P Thought

    P Thought Poster Extraordinaire Silver Supporter

    Posts:
    8,728
    Joined:
    Mar 31, 2009
    Location:
    Plundertown (Gasville) OR
    The stink of this story has tainted all academia.

    We started down this path a long time ago, when the middle-class started sending its kids to college in hopes of bettering the kids' futures. Then colleges proliferated, competition among colleges caused curriculum to bloom far beyond its original "classic education" purpose, sheepskins became fundamental to careers of all kinds, and the brand on the sheepskin became a mark of status and a gateway to financial success. The heavy focus on athletics in colleges is a sideshow, just as corrupt, stinks as badly.

    All this has brought us here. It's cultural rot. Education is no longer the point; this is business. We know what too often happens to ethics in business; are we surprised that this has happened at the colleges?
     
  5. zimbo

    zimbo Friend of Leo's Silver Supporter

    Posts:
    2,517
    Joined:
    Jan 15, 2007
    Location:
    Rochester, NY
    This is obviously the "feel good" story of the year. Who doesn't like to see rich elitist parents and kids dealing with a huge amount of grief brought on by their own criminal activity? However when all is said and done they will get fines and community service and it won't be so bad. Their kids will get into less prestigious schools and if they are destined to succeed in life they will. No one's going to jail.
     
  6. chris m.

    chris m. Poster Extraordinaire

    Posts:
    6,108
    Joined:
    Mar 25, 2003
    Location:
    Santa Barbara, California
    If you look up the original press accounts, boneyguy, you will see that the universities were not involved. It was a scam run to fool the admissions departments of universities,
    with a few university coaches getting paid to be in on the scam.
     
  7. Ricky D.

    Ricky D. Poster Extraordinaire

    Age:
    68
    Posts:
    9,787
    Joined:
    Oct 22, 2006
    Location:
    Raleigh, North Carolina
    Personal and family networks are a great advantage in life. That's just how the world works. Opportunity matters.

    Sooner or later, though, you find out they don't guarantee significant accomplishment or success in life. That comes from real skills that were gained by all that previously unrecognized hard work.
     
  8. beninma

    beninma Tele-Afflicted Silver Supporter

    Age:
    41
    Posts:
    1,756
    Joined:
    Mar 17, 2017
    Location:
    Massachusetts
    There were also cases mentioned where proctors doctored the completed paper tests after the student finished, so the student might not have known.

    Of course if my parents had done this with me I would have been 100% suspicious the moment I found out I was taking the test alone in a room with 2X the normal time for the test because I had a "learning disability" that I knew I didn't have.

    By all means if the students knew I'd say throw the book at them.. but if they didn't know I think it's more of a gray area, especially if they have been getting good grades (without cheating) for several semesters. If they're getting good grades that might be an indication they deserve to be there after all. The initial admissions process is highly flawed to begin with.
     
  9. telemnemonics

    telemnemonics Doctor of Teleocity

    Age:
    59
    Posts:
    14,635
    Joined:
    Mar 2, 2010
    Location:
    Maine
    Plausible deniability has been a standard practice for quite some time.
    An institution that runs internal scams will take measures to prevent documents linking the institution to the individuals doing the actual dirty work.
    The party line can simply be that they had no idea this stuff was happening.
     
  10. boneyguy

    boneyguy Doctor of Teleocity

    Age:
    61
    Posts:
    11,453
    Joined:
    Mar 31, 2007
    Location:
    victoria b.c. CANADA
    Okay, that's understandable as a strategy that works in all sorts of professions....politics, medicine come to mind. And it may be that it might be impossible to find specific university admissions representatives who were involved..BUT for certain, even without knowing names, there were definitely university employees involved....I mean there had to be. The parents gave their money to someone. So, why do we need specific names in order to penalize the university? It's undoubtedly an 'inside job' so applying a penalty to the university would make sense because they should be policing what they're employees are doing, no? These sort of penalties are used in other professional settings where it is considered that the larger body should be monitoring & policing it's employees.
     
  11. Fearnot

    Fearnot Friend of Leo's

    Posts:
    4,626
    Joined:
    Jan 17, 2010
    Location:
    Decatur, GA
    I just want to point out that this story appeared just in time to push other all-consuming and scandalous stories off the news cycle. Another will be along when this one burns out.

    The 24/7 news cycle churns on.
     
    P Thought and drlucky like this.
  12. chris m.

    chris m. Poster Extraordinaire

    Posts:
    6,108
    Joined:
    Mar 25, 2003
    Location:
    Santa Barbara, California
    The FBI is issuing specific indictments for individuals that participated in the scam. I'm sure all universities will be looking at their procedures with an
    eye towards avoiding this kind of problem in the future. I suspect that the university, like most institutions, trusted its employees. Once you can "turn"
    a trusted employee and have them participate in a scam then all kinds of bad things can happen. This is no different from embezzlement....but thanks to
    fairly rigorous financial auditing most embezzlers are eventually caught. I suspect that admissions departments will have to employ similar auditing systems
    now that they have found a chink in their armor.

    For any of you that work in large institutions, this is why we have so much damn paperwork. Someone cheats the system and so they come up with more
    paperwork and audits to try and prevent it in the future. Things would be so much more efficient if we could run things more on fundamental trust, but someone
    always comes along and mucks it up for the rest of us.
     
    P Thought and drlucky like this.
  13. drf64

    drf64 Poster Extraordinaire Silver Supporter

    Age:
    54
    Posts:
    6,751
    Joined:
    Jul 24, 2009
    Location:
    Ada, MI
    How about a Jimmy Valentine exclusion? Any room for reformation?
     
  14. beninma

    beninma Tele-Afflicted Silver Supporter

    Age:
    41
    Posts:
    1,756
    Joined:
    Mar 17, 2017
    Location:
    Massachusetts
    Universities have already been given a lot of privilege I doubt law enforcement is going to go after any big names at the schools unless the gun is really smoking.

    There's a lot of weirdness around colleges & universities already. Colleges are allowed to try kids for crimes in Kangaroo court instead of having to report it all to Law Enforcement and let Law Enforcement take care of it. Colleges have their own police forces that give huge leeway to students (warnings or less) for things that non-students the same age will get nailed to the wall for with felony charges. The campus police are the ones who show up when it's students even if they are responding to something that is not on campus property.
     
  15. D_W_PGH

    D_W_PGH Friend of Leo's

    Age:
    42
    Posts:
    3,181
    Joined:
    Aug 28, 2018
    Location:
    Pittsburgh
    I would mark the transcripts of the affected students (which may not do anything since students often provide transcript copies to prospective employers, unless that's changed).

    For folks who have attained professional degrees, incurred no other disciplinary action and are board certified, etc, in good standing, I would do nothing other than mark their transcripts. Whether you like how they got there or not, they are no less qualified than anyone else who got through.

    You can do whatever you want to scrutinize their achievements, but if you can't prove plagiarism or use of someone else's work, you're literally fouling people who probably have a lot of money, you (as a university) dropped the ball from a governance standpoint in the first place - which universities often do but claim they don't, they're good at pointing fingers - and you'll get the horns.

    My profession has a bunch of submitted material that you have to provide and it's sort of a problem-solving related thing. It has to be done by you individually and not by anyone else, and woe be to the person who tries to get out of work or make themselves look smarter by copying. The profession uses plagiarism and cheating software to review prior submitted projects. Each time the software is updated, the credentialing organization says they do or can re-evaluate every document they ever had submitted to them. If you submitted something in 2004, and the 2019 version of the software figures out that you plagiarized something or let someone else copy your work (or copied theirs), but all prior versions didn't see it? Guess what, you still lose. Their governance is strong and they threaten all the time, so there is very little mickey mouse in the first place (I have never seen someone cheat in person, even though the projects are timed and the time period is a matter of days, not hours). I had one coworker years ago keep submitting a project and keep failing. he asked if he could see my submission and I said "no" -make a checklist of the project and the instructions and see if you can ensure that you did each one of the things that the instructions call for. I have 45 pages of material in my submission, you had 16 in your last one. I don't think you're doing all of the things they ask you to or it would be longer". He said if I "didn't help him" (let him look at my submission), he'd probably keep failing and never get his credentials, and all I could say was "I don't think you will, but if that happens, that's kind of the point of it".

    If the universities and employers can't differentiate these graduates after a fraudulent admission, then shame on them for not doing enough to actually differentiate the good students from the bad.

    If I were an AG in one of these states with lots of fraudulent admissions, I'd be leaning on the colleges more than the students.

    I also would look further than this particular instance. If we believe that this and legacy admissions cover it all and everything else is squeaky clean, then we're pretty naive.
     
    P Thought likes this.
  16. otterhound

    otterhound Poster Extraordinaire

    Posts:
    7,449
    Joined:
    Dec 14, 2008
    Location:
    Manheim Pa.
    You're tough . Harsh world that reality thing .
     
  17. D_W_PGH

    D_W_PGH Friend of Leo's

    Age:
    42
    Posts:
    3,181
    Joined:
    Aug 28, 2018
    Location:
    Pittsburgh
    They will say that no matter what unless their own review finds that they can be figured out easily. It's not a matter of whether or not they think they actually did anything at an organizational level. Either way, it opens them up to governance and process questions.
     
    telemnemonics likes this.
  18. telemnemonics

    telemnemonics Doctor of Teleocity

    Age:
    59
    Posts:
    14,635
    Joined:
    Mar 2, 2010
    Location:
    Maine
    I agree that the food served is the responsibility of the Chef, and can't be pawned off on the line cooks.
    But it seems in a court of law this isn't how it works.

    Really it's about cronyism for the sake of elitism, not so much academia.
    Non ivy league schools turn out qualified professionals, but the best jobs might be going to those with connections based on wealth and payoffs.
    Since elitism is legal, and dues are legal for membership in elite organizations, it might be hard for non elites to force elites to stop their elitism.

    Might even be unconstitutional...
     
    boneyguy and P Thought like this.
  19. D_W_PGH

    D_W_PGH Friend of Leo's

    Age:
    42
    Posts:
    3,181
    Joined:
    Aug 28, 2018
    Location:
    Pittsburgh
    I'll bet the cure in this case will be ten times worse than the disease in terms of trouble vs. benefit, and it'll end up being done like a SAS checklist (as in, go through the motions, but don't look that hard because you have 10 other things waiting to be done the same way and you can't get excited about everything every year).
     
  20. jimgchord

    jimgchord Tele-Holic

    Age:
    45
    Posts:
    933
    Joined:
    Apr 3, 2018
    Location:
    victor,ny
    If they were unaware,Dont punish children because their parents are morons. If they are competent and can truly do their own work, should they suffer?
     
IMPORTANT: Treat everyone here with respect, no matter how difficult!
No sex, drug, political, religion or hate discussion permitted here.


  1. This site uses cookies to help personalise content, tailor your experience and to keep you logged in if you register.
    By continuing to use this site, you are consenting to our use of cookies.