Students who benefitted from bribes in admissions scandal.

Discussion in 'Bad Dog Cafe' started by Larry F, Mar 19, 2019.

  1. otterhound

    otterhound Poster Extraordinaire

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    So , you are of the opinion that money , more of it , is the answer to a quality education . In your opinion , what level per capita should it be ?
    If I am misreading this , please correct me .
     
  2. maxvintage

    maxvintage Friend of Leo's

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    Public school teachers make considerably more than I do as a college professor, especially if they continue graduate work and get a Phd. And they have no expectations that they'll have to do research. The tradeoff comes in control over your time, and the degree of freedom you get. Autonomy is worth a lot.

    Public school teachers have little control over what they teach; they're obliged to stick to a standard curriculum and in my state to "teach to the test:" that is, they have to teach so that the students will do well on Virginia's "standards of learning" test, which the students take at the end of every year. That test is clearly designed to appease a variety of political constituencies, from conservative to liberal, and the result is kind of incoherent, and doesn't really resemble history the way it's taught in college. It's an exercise in memorization, and when I look at the questions I think "ok i can see they are supposed to answer 'A' here, but actually that answer isn't right or is really questionable."

    Of course any standardized test, in a diverse and politically varied country, is going to be a mess. The NRA member wants one kind of answer, and the gun control activist wants a different answer; the religious person wants questions that lead to X, and the non-religious person wants questions that lead to Y, and they are both paying for the system with their taxes, so they're both entitled to be represented. And of course you don't want teachers to be partisans: they shouldn't force their politics, right or left, on students. That's a tough job for the teacher. They have less and less intellectual freedom, in the sense that what they can teach is really constrained. They can only teach stuff that's going to be on the test, and that stuff is often kind of randomly chosen to appease a political faction.

    Despite that at least where we live the schools do a damn fine job. It's tough: they have to teach everyone, from motivated kids with a stable home life and supportive parents to lazy kids with shattered home lives. They have to teach in a way that doesn't piss off the liberal or the conservative, while also established a baseline of fact. In my opinion they aren't paid enough.

    In college history accumulating facts is secondary to critical thinking. You might compare facts to the screws or nails and studs a carpenter uses to frame a house. Screws and nails are essential, but the framing of the house involves putting the materials together in a coherent way that stands up to use and can be applied and adapted in other situations.
     
    Last edited: Mar 22, 2019
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  3. D_W_PGH

    D_W_PGH Friend of Leo's

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    Me, too, but 35 years ago, we didn't have well behaved kids in school. It's easy to become like the teacher I mentioned and blame your lack of interest on the students.
     
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  4. blowtorch

    blowtorch Telefied Ad Free Member

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    I like this discussion.

    Having said that: the threads that are allowed to continue, versus the threads that get shut down...it seems pretty arbitrary, at times
     
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  5. getbent

    getbent Telefied Ad Free Member

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    The fact exists. People with more formal education live longer, are healthier and do better economically. Those are facts. What is true depends on how you process those facts.
     
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  6. chris m.

    chris m. Poster Extraordinaire

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    Yes, I believe you get what you pay for. Best public schools are in Finland. Their teacher jobs are coveted and highly paid with very rigorous standards.
     
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  7. blowtorch

    blowtorch Telefied Ad Free Member

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    :lol: "facts"
    More formal education than who?
    Or, more formal education as compared to what?
    And, live longer etc compared to what group?
    :rolleyes:

    It'd be like making the statement "people who go to ivy league colleges have less common sense".
     
    Last edited: Mar 22, 2019
  8. rigatele

    rigatele Tele-Afflicted

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    ...than the average...
     
  9. blowtorch

    blowtorch Telefied Ad Free Member

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    The average pigeon? :p
     
  10. chris m.

    chris m. Poster Extraordinaire

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    African or European pigeon?

    A quick Google search yields this article from the U.S. Dept of Health and Human Services, rife with references from peer reviewed journals:

    Here's a key quote:

    "Of the various social determinants of health that explain health disparities by geography or demographic characteristics (e.g., age, gender, race-ethnicity), the literature has always pointed prominently to education. Research based on decades of experience in the developing world has identified educational status (especially of the mother) as a major predictor of health outcomes, and economic trends in the industrialized world have intensified the relationship between education and health. In the United States, the gradient in health outcomes by educational attainment has steepened over the last four decades7,8 in all regions of the United States,9 producing a larger gap in health status between Americans with high and low education. Among white Americans without a high school diploma, especially women,10 life expectancy has decreased since the 1990s, whereas it has increased for others.8 Death rates are declining among the most educated Americans, accompanied by steady or increasing death rates among the least educated.11The statistics comparing the health of Americans based on education are striking:

    • At age 25, U.S. adults without a high school diploma can expect to die 9 years sooner than college graduates.12
    • According to one study, college graduates with only a Bachelor's degree were 26 percent more likely to die during a 5-year study followup period than those with a professional degree. Americans with less than a high school education were almost twice as likely to die in the next 5 years compared to those with a professional degree.13
    • Among whites with less than 12 years of education, life expectancy at age 25 fell by more than 3 years for men and by more than 5 years for women between 1990 and 2008.8
    • By 2011, the prevalence of diabetes had reached 15 percent for adults without a high school education, compared with 7 percent for college graduates.14"

    https://www.ahrq.gov/professionals/education/curriculum-tools/population-health/zimmerman.html
     
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  11. otterhound

    otterhound Poster Extraordinaire

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    Where can I find the evidence to support this .
    I am particularly interested in the live longer and are healthier aspects .
     
  12. getbent

    getbent Telefied Ad Free Member

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    I believe Post #190 will be a good start point. The good gentleman from the fine city of Santa Barbara has a good resource....
     
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  13. Larry F

    Larry F Doctor of Teleocity Vendor Member

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    People with health problems in childhood may not have been able to take full advantage of the educational opportunities available to their healthy peers. Thinking of "health" in broad terms.

    I doubt that there is much to this, but I've been trained to consider correlations with a jaundiced eye.
     
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  14. chris m.

    chris m. Poster Extraordinaire

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    Correlation is not causation yet the strength of the correlation is quite compelling. Lower education may not be the direct cause but it’s a strong covariant. So, for example, it might be as simple as less education means lower paying job means crummier health care. Or it could be more direct, such as willingness to study and listen to professors equals willingness to heed standard medical advice. You can hypothesize multiple causal mechanisms but the strength of the correlation makes it worth positing then investigating actual causes.
     
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  15. otterhound

    otterhound Poster Extraordinaire

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    I will ask for more than one opinion .
    It does say widely accepted . That , to me is a fairly general statement and implies an agenda going in .
    I would like to see something to balance that , like a study set up to debunk this agenda and reached a conclusion in concert with the opposing view . Got one or are we just preaching to the choir ?
     
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  16. getbent

    getbent Telefied Ad Free Member

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    i think you are a smart guy and capable on teh internet. i think you will find as you search FOR YOURSELF... that it is 'true' and you will need to choose to accept or deny it as you choose... it will remain true (and why average folks do it) but whether others choose to embrace it as 'true' or not... will be an emotional OR intellectual choice.
     
  17. otterhound

    otterhound Poster Extraordinaire

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    I am very capable . This is a test . Conclusion is unproven by unwilling participant . Thanks regardless .
     
  18. chris m.

    chris m. Poster Extraordinaire

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    Publishing factual research findings is not enhanced by including counter factual, non-real information. It would be like publishing the circumference of the Earth along with claims that the Earth is flat.
     
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  19. getbent

    getbent Telefied Ad Free Member

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    either way, loggerheads are achieved.
     
  20. maxvintage

    maxvintage Friend of Leo's

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    Post # 190 is more than one opinion. The article it quotes has 175 footnotes, almost all of which are to different individuals reaching specific conclusions. Each of those footnotes contains the information you need to check on the validity of the claims made in the document.

    For example, footnote 169: "Shaw M, Dorling D, Smith GD. Poverty, social exclusion, and minorities. In Marmot M, Wilkinson RG (Eds), Social determinants of health. Oxford: Oxford University Press; 1999. Pages 211-39"

    You can go read that book. Or you can just read pages 211-230. It's an expensive book, but it's probably in a university library. You can decide is the evidence presented is persuasive. And then you can read the other books articles and papers cited in the footnotes. Or you can accept the author's conclusion based on that evidence. Or you can do some research yourself.

    I'm not sure what else you would like to see posted, but the guy gave you evidence to support his claim, and it's not just one opinion. He's not required to make the opposite case.
     
    Last edited: Mar 22, 2019
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