Students who benefitted from bribes in admissions scandal.

Discussion in 'Bad Dog Cafe' started by Larry F, Mar 19, 2019.

  1. Larry F

    Larry F Doctor of Teleocity Vendor Member

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    The admissions scandal has raised some questions about the students who benefitted from the bribes and cheating. An article in Forbes this weekend suggested that some conversations need to be had, concerning the future of the students. Some points raised include:

    1. How far along in their programs of study should the students be in order to get a pass? Or, should they be expelled and all grades and credits canceled?

    2. OK, what about a manager in the workforce who is discovered to have benefitted from a bribery scheme? If his or her degree is revoked, what does this mean, legally, for a job obtained with an unfactual CV?

    3. OK, here's the one that caught my attention: professional and licensed jobs such as attorney, medical doctor, pharmacist, nurse, etc. Revoke their academic degrees and professional licenses?

    For me, the moral dimensions of cheating by the elites (a few months ago, I would not have used the word) are great. Opposite this feeling, I wonder how in the heck such "de-commissioning" of the briber could be carried out? Sure would hate to see them squirm out of this, as they seem to do whenever the walls start to close in.
     
  2. beninma

    beninma Tele-Afflicted Silver Supporter

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    Legacy admissions and above board donations to the school to get kids in is pretty much the same thing only legal and tolerated.

    You can look down on those people but here's the thing. Maybe it's unfair but if someone got in on legacy and then the following happened:
    - They worked hard
    - They got good grades in college
    - They work hard at their job and do a good job

    Is it really fair to punish that person?

    I think for these kids whose parents were bribing or cheating the system it depends on whether the kid was aware of what was going on. If they posed for fake athletic pictures and then a coach was bribed, I'd say the kid might deserve to be expelled. If the kid was aware the parents were cheating the SAT/ACT, same thing. But if the kid didn't know and the parents did it all secretly, and now the kid is performing in the college classes cut them a break.

    So for the celebrity kids who say they are just at school to party & do their Youtube channel and have publicly said "college is not really for me but I want the party/game day experience", expel em since they seem to have known their parents were helping them cheat their way in.
     
  3. Boubou

    Boubou Doctor of Teleocity Gold Supporter

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    If a person successfully completed a degree, I don’t see why they should lose it.
    But they should have to financially sponsor 2 students for their studies
     
  4. rad1

    rad1 Tele-Holic

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    It is simple for me, all degrees are revoked. All current students work is tossed out and the students are expelled.

    Any company or organization with an employee who has a degree that is a result of a fraudulent admission can take what action they deem appropriate.
     
  5. Antmax

    Antmax Tele-Meister

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    Cheating is FAR more extensive than the outrage about bribing schools.

    There are contract freelance writing sites dedicated to pairing students with qualified writers with expertise in specific subjects that can research and write their papers for them. Guaranteed no plagiarism and top grades.

    They will write essays and dissertations for students who provide reading material that has to be researched and pay per word just like any other writer job. It's very lucrative.

    https://thebestschools.org/resources/detecting-deterring-ghostwritten-papers-best-practices/


    When we were newly married and struggling about 20 years ago, my wife worked for a regular freelance writing company online and used to get lots of English literature and history essays. At some point because her writing was really good the company handed her a permanent client that turned out to be a wealthy student taking three subjects at an exclusive university and was struggling to keep up. Once my wife found out what was really going on she got quite stressed but needed the money. In the end she quit a few months before the course was concluded. Quite a lot of outrage ensued lol. My wife used to get textbooks fedexed overnight delivery because the coursework deadlines were pretty tight.

    As you can see from the article, It's become a lot more common now with companies specializing in producing coursework.
     
    Last edited: Mar 19, 2019
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  6. chris m.

    chris m. Poster Extraordinaire

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    I agree with beninma on this. In any criminal conviction, state of mind is critical. If the student truly was innocent and had no knowledge of the perfidy,
    then it would be unjust to punish him or her for the sins of his/her parents. Hopefully the parents will have to pay large fines as part of their punishment,
    and those funds can be used to pay for students in future years to partly make up for the "spots" that were taken by these students.
     
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  7. Mike Eskimo

    Mike Eskimo Doctor of Teleocity Ad Free Member

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    1.) All students expelled. That way they hate their parents and that is extra punishment on the perps. The “bulldozer” parent reduced to an embarrassment to the “thing” they treasure most .

    2.) A manager in the workforce?

    Their penalty is they have to remain a manager the rest of their lives .

    I’m sure that’s illegal in a lot of states as cruel and unusual punishment, but still…

    3.) Doctors and nurses? There is such a shortage of both that nothing should happen to them. If they went to school and actually earned their degree? Whatever...we need ‘em.

    Pharmacists ? No opinion. Lawyers ? They should have to do an astronomical amount of pro bono work In the poorest of communities to retain their licenses.
     
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  8. Antmax

    Antmax Tele-Meister

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    hmm. previous post got quoted instead of edited.
     
  9. Mark the Moose

    Mark the Moose Tele-Meister

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    In terms of credits and degrees , that which is earned is over and done with regardless of whether they cheated the admissions process or if someone cheated it on their behalf. If a student has completed the requirements of the degree, it wouldn't hold up to revoke their degree based on an admissions scandal. If a student is in progress, it wouldn't hold up to revoke any earned credit. However, it would hold up to disallow continuation without that student going through the admissions process again in a fashion which is similar to that of a transfer student.
     
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  10. Ricky D.

    Ricky D. Poster Extraordinaire

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    Legacy admissions have to be ok, that's a deal the school accepted.

    These corrupt admissions are a different animal altogether. It's inconceivable that an athletic department request could be made without the student's knowledge. Same thing with the fraudulent test scores. These cases need to be assessed individually, but if the student knew, they have to go.
     
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  11. Jason99

    Jason99 TDPRI Member

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    Except, the crimes were committed in the student’s name. The student benefited from the illegality. They couldn’t get excepted on their own merits so the parents resorted to this fiasco. If the student works hard or not does not matter. They don’t belong in the school, therefore they should be expelled. I had the occasional misfortune of running into these celebrity children when I was doing my doctorate program at USC. I don’t like celebrities or think they deserve any greater respect than any normal person you’d run into in the world. The children of these people are the absolute worst. My first thought was always, how in the world did you get into this school with so few brain cells? Everyone involved should be expelled whether they knew about it or not. I hope the IRS takes away all their belongings for committing tax fraud on top of the bribes.
     
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  12. otterhound

    otterhound Poster Extraordinaire

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    Which raises the question .
    Should the thief that stole your guitar have to return it to you after they make the big time and should they be prosecuted for stealing it in the first place ?
     
  13. chris m.

    chris m. Poster Extraordinaire

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    It is quite conceivable that the athletic department made the request without the student's knowledge. According to the
    reporting, here's how it worked:

    - con man Singer worked with parents to produce false documentation of student's participation in sports.
    - con man paid coach (sailing, tennis, crew, whatever) $50k or more to tell the admissions department that they
    had an interest in that student attending the school. A special athletic "hold" is put on the application.
    - kid gets accepted to the school. Kid never even knew that he/she was "tapped" for a team. Coach never says anything, and
    kid never goes to any team sessions since kid has no clue. Admissions department is none the wiser because they focus
    on admissions process and don't pay attention to the rosters of their teams.

    Now in some cases it has actually been documented that the student was a willing co-conspirator, helping to doctor photos,
    change application essay, etc., to create a false narrative about being a top level athlete. But in others, according to the reporting,
    the kid really had no clue what the parents were doing behind the scenes.
     
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  14. beninma

    beninma Tele-Afflicted Silver Supporter

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    Legacy admissions can still be really heartbreaking to a kid who wants to go to a school and doesn't have an advantage like that. You can have a personal experience where you don't get in and you see your friend get into that Ivy league school with lower grades, lower SAT/ACT scores, less athletic accomplishment, etc.. And then you see all their siblings get in on legacy too despite the same situation. It absolutely happens.

    And that is without the parental alumnus going and donating millions.
     
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  15. chris m.

    chris m. Poster Extraordinaire

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    "The children of these people are the absolute worst." I disagree. Their parents are the absolute worst, but the jury is still out on the kids themselves.
    There is a good chance they could have gotten into other schools quite easily without this scam.

    How about this? They get kicked out, but they get to keep any credits they legitimately earned while in school. Those credits can be used towards
    graduation when they transfer to another school that they legitimately get into. Their application essay can be all about how much they have learned
    as a result of this scandal regarding ethics, morals, and the particular moral obligations of a person who is born with a silver spoon in one's mouth.
     
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  16. bgmacaw

    bgmacaw Tele-Afflicted

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    It reminds me of this scene from Casablanca...

     
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  17. telemnemonics

    telemnemonics Doctor of Teleocity

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    Maybe I didn't read enough of the way they cheated, but I'd think @Larry F was talking about cases where the student did indeed know they were cheating.

    I don't know why a student would have somebody else take their admissions test for them if they were solid performers capable of performing well in the curriculum.

    If it was a case where the school was so elite that only the top scorers could get in, why does this particular student need to cheat by faking an athletic scholarship that requires less academic skills?
    Seems fair that poorer performers are just not elite performers?
    Why punish them?
    I guess as a deterrent?
    Do we promote leniency for criminal acts committed by poor people too?

    And how could they reasonably not know they were cheating?
    Are these kids really that dumb?

    Kids who are poor performers out of HS but then find their footing and become elite academics can always transfer to a better school, if they cannot face the job market without an ivy league diploma.

    Further, maybe the investigators know that the kids who cheated for admission continued to cheat to pass classes. It seems unlikely that lots of kids are not smart enough to pass admissions tests but are smart enough to do well in elite schools that command top jobs for graduates. Allegations we see in the news may be the ones that were provable, and there may have been more cheating uncovered in the investigations, but only the admissions stuff was well documented.
    It would be sad for dummies who worked a scam without understanding the scam to not be allowed to continue a scam attained career, but what of the integrity of the system?

    If the student passed their tests and the parents made a big donation to ensure acceptance, then I'd agree that the student shouldn't pay any consequence.
    But the family should, not sure if publicly.
     
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  18. D_W_PGH

    D_W_PGH Friend of Leo's

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    I think a lot of lawsuits would be won if someone tried to do something that simple.
     
  19. john_t

    john_t Tele-Meister

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    The students in question need to be expelled and/or have their degrees revoked. Otherwise there will be no deterrent against such behavior in the future. If the parents realize that they AND their children may have to pay the penalties, they may reconsider breaking the law to get them in college.

    And in addition to jail time, impose a $2 million financial penalty for each offender (these jerks can afford that no problem) and create a fund to help (honest) kids afford college. Seize all assets of the operation in question and add to that fund. That's a couple of hundred million that could go to some good use.
     
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  20. chris m.

    chris m. Poster Extraordinaire

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    With regard to SAT/ACT, in some cases the kids just took the test. They got their scores. They didn't know that their parents then
    paid to have a proctor or proxy take the test, which resulted in higher scores. The new test results were then in the ETS database for the schools
    to check, but the student wouldn't necessarily have any idea that there were new, higher scores in the ETS database for them, especially
    if the parents intercepted any new test results that were mailed to the home.
     
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