Standard oil vs. synthetic?

Discussion in 'Bad Dog Cafe' started by davo8411, May 22, 2019.

  1. charlie chitlin

    charlie chitlin Doctor of Teleocity Silver Supporter

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    I have blown a lower radiator hose on the highway, driven to the next exit, driven around an unfamiliar town until I found an auto parts store...in mid-summer, without overheating, with full synthetic oil.
    Yeah...it lubricates a LOT better.
    And the interval to change it is much longer, so it turns out to not even be more expensive.
     
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  2. boris bubbanov

    boris bubbanov Telefied Ad Free Member

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    Why was it using any at all?

    Makes me queasy when a 4 cycle internal combustion motor "uses" oil. Except those Rotaries that Mazda used to offer - wow did they ever consume oil.
     
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  3. JL_LI

    JL_LI Friend of Leo's

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    Not already mentioned:
    • Lower viscosity of synthetic means much less cold start damage. Synthetic flows instantly.
    • Better fuel economy because of less engine drag. The engine uses less of its available power just to turn itself.
    • Faster acceleration because of lower engine drag.
    • Eco friendly because with more miles between changes there’s less of it to dispose of.
    • Better engine protection at higher operating temperatures.
    • Your time is worth something. Fewer changes, either doing it yourself or bringing the car in means more time for music.
    To me, there’s no good reason not to use the best synthetic oil you can find that meets the viscosity and service grade requirements of the manufacturer of your vehicle.
     
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  4. galaxiex

    galaxiex Tele-Holic Silver Supporter

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    What vehicle is it?
     
  5. dkmw

    dkmw Friend of Leo's Silver Supporter

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    Porsches will use a little oil, it’s considered normal. Something about a flat six with chain driven cams, I guess.
     
  6. drumtime

    drumtime Tele-Meister

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    A lot of newer engines are built with low friction rings, to help increase gas mileage. As a result, they actually blow some oil, which needs to be replenished. Synthetic should resist this phenomenon better.
     
  7. galaxiex

    galaxiex Tele-Holic Silver Supporter

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    ALL piston type gasoline internal combustion engines "use oil".

    There is always a small amount of oil consumption no matter how precisely the engine is built.
    Ask an automotive engineer.

    What most people don't recognize, and especially those people that brag about how their engine...

    "Never uses ANY oil"........ "It's always full, even after thousands of miles"

    ... is that the tiny amount of oil consumed, gets replaced with acids and other byproducts of combustion...

    ... so the oil always "appears full" when they check it.

    Those byproducts of combustion replace the oil that has been "consumed" or burned in the combustion chamber, due to leakage past the rings.

    No matter how good the piston ring seal, there is always a small amount of combustion byproducts that get past the rings, and into the oil.
    And conversely, a small amount of oil that gets past the rings and into the combustion chamber. Not enough to create smoke out the tail pipe, but it does get burned.

    This is why you need to change the oil... because it gets contaminated with those byproducts of combustion.

    If it never got contaminated.... (ie; completely PERFECT ring seal, which does not exist) you'd never have to change it. Except for...

    The oil itself doesn't breakdown, it's the additive package that is engineered into the oil that "wears out" so even if you had "perfect ring seal" and...

    "Zero oil consumption", you would still have to change the oil as the additives wear out.

    .
     
    Last edited: May 22, 2019
  8. Dacious

    Dacious Poster Extraordinaire

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    All modern motors use a little of the very thin oil car makers specify - it's how carmakers meet very tight emissions standards. My wife's BMW 118 sips 5-30 synthetic sparingly, a cup every couple thousand km. Her previous VW which was a disaster drank a cup every tank of juice.....

    Do not make the mistake with a modern motor of the Billy-Bob 'just stick 20-50 in it'. Modern motors use oil pressure for things like variable cam phasing and with fine oil passages you will screw up lubrication.

    If it's a car you intend keeping for a while synthetic oils are far superior in resisting degradation. Someone mentioned cold start but also oil film strength is another plus, plus they work well with seals in new cars.

    They're much more shear stable - all multigrade oil will eventually thin down to it's base viscosity as the polymers of the viscosity improvers get chopped up but it takes longer. Any recommended oil will be OK but quality synthetic is just more insurance and will repay longterm.
     
  9. Recce

    Recce Tele-Afflicted

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    This, if you just bought your first new car be smart and use synthetic oil. It is better. You will get better engine wear. I have not seen any study saying regular oil is better.
     
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  10. charlie chitlin

    charlie chitlin Doctor of Teleocity Silver Supporter

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    It was a Chevy Astro with AWD.
     
  11. boris bubbanov

    boris bubbanov Telefied Ad Free Member

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    Of course. Nobody is disagreeing with that.

    The amount of oil used, the poster was able to measure it. Isn't that what his post said? That's too much.

    I've heard some of the things you're saying, before, but where? Oh, my Dad. Retired SAE member; the guy who had me reading about how to manufacture a door handle from pot metal, SAE Journal, sitting on his knee. Who taught me how to recognize the various sounds of failed bearings and etc. Your effort to discredit my post is not appreciated, since you know I already know all that stuff.

    There's metal bearing produced by the motion of the metal parts; there's all sorts of opportunities for the properties of the lubricants and the fuel and so forth to change in displacement. It is pretty well understood that's all supposed to even out, these days. And thus the term "uses oil" means a net change not in the amount of oil but in the displacement of whatever is found in the crankcase. Of course it isn't a perpetual motion machine.
     
    Last edited: May 22, 2019
  12. Frontman

    Frontman Tele-Holic

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    I remember when tuning my old ZX11 motorcycle on the dyno some years ago. We were trying all the tweaks possible to get power out of it. Switching from Castrol GTX petroleum oil to Mobil 1 synthetic added 6 more horsepower, which is a significant difference on a motorcycle. If you are looking for performance or longevity, synthetic oil is worth the money. If you are leasing a car, or trade your car in every 4 or 5 years, you don't need it.
     
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  13. jvin248

    jvin248 Poster Extraordinaire

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    Extends oil change frequency, a lot.

    Increases MPG by 1 to 2 mpg

    Here's an oil guy testing what's available.

     
  14. galaxiex

    galaxiex Tele-Holic Silver Supporter

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    I wasn't trying to discredit your post.

    You asked... "Why was it using any at all?"

    I answered.

    Your post question *seemed* to indicate that you thought engines should not use any oil at all... because you also said this...

    "Makes me queasy when a 4 cycle internal combustion motor "uses" oil."

    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    How could I possibly know, that you already know all that stuff???

    .
     
  15. otterhound

    otterhound Poster Extraordinaire

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    There are 2 negatives to synthetic oil .
    1 Cost
    2 Since all molecules are identical , the oil will break down totally and completely when it breaks down . There is a plus side to this in that it is nearly impossible for any of us here to ever bring a synthetic oil to that point .
    The old tendency of synthetic oil to find leaks where mineral based oils won't has long been dealt with .
     
  16. stratoman1

    stratoman1 Tele-Afflicted

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    It doesn't leak or burn oil and it's got 185K on the cloc . I'm good with that
     
  17. Dacious

    Dacious Poster Extraordinaire

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    Well actually as noted it will use oil - but it's being masked by topping up the sump. People who buy diesels and only do short trips sometimes notice oil topping itself up, marching up the dipstick.

    It's because to keep their ppf.or particulate filter clean they will run a richer mix which dilutes lubricant on the cylinder bores and bypass the rings. Gasoline motors create water vapour some of which, with fine particles of sooty byproducts ends up in the sump. Dirty oil is keeping the finer particles not removed by the filter in suspension for the next oil change.

    So just because your engine isn't 'using' oil does not mean the oil isn't past lubricating efficiency at a certain mileage or the engine isn't wearing. Once the major antiwear compounds are gone, it's not doing much to prevent wear other than cooling surfaces and stopping them going metal-metal.
     
  18. omahaaudio

    omahaaudio Friend of Leo's

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    None of the cars that I have owned required synthetic oil, and they were all great cars.
    If you insist on using a more expensive oil when it's not needed go right ahead.
    You can also pay more for (non-required) premium gasoline in the mistaken belief that it makes your car run better.
    The oil companies will love you.
     
  19. Bluey

    Bluey Tele-Meister

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    If it's a brand new car the first service should be done by the dealer at no charge. If its not you will void all warranty. After the first service you can take it to any liceced or qualified mechanic of your choice for schedule servicing until warranty period runs out. Then do what you want. Synthetic oil is for vehicles designed to run on 95 - 98 octain. Mineral oil is for older vehicles that use standard or 91 octain and synthetic oil will stuff rubber engine seals etc in the older designed engines.. Newer engines are designed for synthetic and it is far, like far far, superior for engine life than mineral oil.
     
  20. Musekatcher

    Musekatcher Tele-Afflicted

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    Nearly 60 trillion miles of US vehicular operation were logged before the emergence of synthetic oil. Oil related failures disappeared before the emergence of synthetics, 40+ years ago. I tried it for a while, being ever curious. I can testify, I didn't get anywhere any faster, any more comfortable, or any more stylish. My tire wear didn't change, my AC still needed service, brakes didn't last longer, still needed washing every week or two, etc. The only thing I could measurably detect, was my wallet was lighter ;)

    PS - I've tripped 270k on a half dozen vehicles. Oil usage nil. Amazing but true. And, I've stretched my changes a lot over the years, because of it. There is a huge amount of wasted oil each year from totally unnecessary oil changes.
     
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