Soaking wood binding in dye?

Discussion in 'Tele Home Depot' started by Johnny7s, May 23, 2019.

  1. Johnny7s

    Johnny7s TDPRI Member

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    Hello!

    Has anyone ever done this before?

    Would be cool as neck or headstock binding, make it pop like your top!!

    Lol.

    A pic of my initial "test," it looked like it was permeated in no more than a minute or two...

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  2. Preacher

    Preacher Friend of Leo's

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    I am interested to see how this comes out. I have an old plywood solid core beam I am wanting to make a neck blank out of and I want to die it first.
     
  3. Freeman Keller

    Freeman Keller Tele-Afflicted

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    No reason not to. I frequently leave light colored binding and purfling off until I've stained something so the stain doesn't bleed into the light wood. I use CA for all my binding, that doesn't seem to pull any color from stained wood.
     
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  4. Johnny7s

    Johnny7s TDPRI Member

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    @Preacher , it's funny, but I hadn't actually considered doing this on my current build until now, cause it might be the first one I'm not going to keep. Bit risky right out of the gate...

    Now that you said that, im thinking of subdued topwood colors that might work on the body, a "de- lawsuited S"....(in design, I mean, haven't got anyone's attention yet.... lol.)

    I'm using some flame maple veneer on top of roasted swamp ash. It's 4 peices but pretty.....
     
  5. Johnny7s

    Johnny7s TDPRI Member

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    Cool, thanks! I might go with amber or tobacco.... I was thinking tru oil on the back and neck, with that new super glue finish on the top, but my Fisher Price band saw ate a small chunk out of the side of my beautiful body!!! Aaaaahhh!

    20190523_152206.jpg

    Maybe more of a tobacco burst now with lacquer..... in cans. : (
     
  6. Freeman Keller

    Freeman Keller Tele-Afflicted

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    In theory it would work - I'm concerned about stain bleeding at the interface. Probably should seal with shellac. Also, when I bind with wood it is almost impossible to get the channel perfect depth so I try to get it as flat as possible on the wide side (the side of the guitar) and to let it stand a few thousands proud of the top (or back) and scrape the binding back to the top rather than the other way around. Problem with that is that you will scrape some of your stain out and could end up with areas that are lighter or darker. That could always be touched up with a little more stain and a small brush.

    I do the opposite - I stain bodies but try to keep the binding light. Here is a mahogany neck stained to match some cocobolo, the stain was applied before the head was bound. The binding is also coco but there is a line of maple that I wanted to keep stain free. A coat of shellac seemed to seal it just fine

    IMG_4021.JPG IMG_4023.JPG IMG_4381.JPG

    Can't comment on TruOil - I don't use it. I have tried CA as a pore filler (not finish), I felt that finishing resin was better and since I'm allergic to CA it would probably kill me. The above is lacquer.
     
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  7. Johnny7s

    Johnny7s TDPRI Member

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    @Freeman Keller , first of all, that guitar is gorgeous!

    I've never used shellac. I'll look into that.

    The only binding I've done has been along the fretboard... lol, I usually just round the edges of the body and reveal my veneer and a bit of the body wood.

    I really want to do wood binding, and have been thinking about a steam box for quite a while, but haven't got to it yet. Hopefully soon.

    Thanks again for the tips!

    Fyi, my Dad's Christmas / retirement guitar still isn't done... probably shooting for this year. I have strung it up to test it though, and it still has a maple top!
     
  8. Johnny7s

    Johnny7s TDPRI Member

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    I loved using the CA for gloss, I used a certain kind actually made for for it, you can even use their accelerator without cosmetic nastiness happening. I was wet sanding and buffing it on the same day i applied it.

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    *This picture is not intended to be zoomed in on, do so at your own risk*

    It absolutely REFUSES to take a good picture right now... that CA is sooo clear tho, plus the time saved.....

    Of course if you die from the fumes, you can't build guitars anymore.
     
  9. Freeman Keller

    Freeman Keller Tele-Afflicted

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    Sweet.

    I have become hyper sensitive to CA and accelerator. I still use it, for some things there is no substitute, but I wear a full respirator, work outside or with a fan behind me, and keep my albuterol handy. One of the applications that I think it excels at is attaching binding - both wood and plastic. I dry fit the binding as tightly and accurately as I can, then tack it in place with tiny drops of CA. If I have a difficult spot like around a horn I can apply extra holding pressure and maybe use a bit of accelerator. Once the binding is perfectly in place I just run a tiny bead of thin CA around the seams, let it wick in, scrape the excess and bingo!

    As far as bending binding, I do it either on my Fox bender with the same mold that I bent the sides for a guitar (acoustic) or on a hot pipe. I've never tried a steam box, I know they don't work very well for sides. However that does bring up another point about your staining - I would think you would want to bend it before staining but you'll need to experiment.

    Here are two more examples of maple binding. Note on the archtop that I bound everything - body, neck, head, pickguard, f-holes.... If it would hold still I bound it. The archtop got a light amber stain before finish. On both guitars there is a thin black line to set off the binding

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  10. Johnny7s

    Johnny7s TDPRI Member

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    That sucks you got sensitive to CA, i need to start following the rules...

    Can you heat a pipe wth anything but a blowtorch? I actually thought a pipe would be best but it seems unsafe in a one bedroom apartment with a curious kitty.

    So, even though the dye would completely saturate my binding, are you saying that bending it after would give me trouble somehow?
     
  11. Freeman Keller

    Freeman Keller Tele-Afflicted

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    Many people heat a pipe with an electric charcoal lighter. Still gets very hot, just no open flames. Bending the little figity bits for an acoustic headstock. Mahogany neck, rosewood headplate and binding, maple accent stripes. No stain

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    My concern about bending before or after staining is that (1) the hot wet rags and wet binding might bleed, (2) I often get some discoloration from the hot pipe and rag that I have to sand out. Bending wood, particularly for the horn and cutaway is tricky enough, I think you will want to do a lot of experimenting.
     
    Last edited: May 24, 2019
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  12. Johnny7s

    Johnny7s TDPRI Member

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    Me: "Whatever dye I use, all my bindings charcoal black......"

    Cool..... that's an idea. Thx.

    Looking at the pics of the pipe makes me wonder If you could screw together two pipes of different radii? Or could they over stress one another at the point you connect them?

    Or maybe I expect you to be my one man, non profit Lutherie school? Who knows....
     
  13. Davecam48

    Davecam48 Friend of Leo's Ad Free Member

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    Regarding making bends in thin timber for sides and binding etc. look up my thread Steam Benda'

    Consists of an old pressure cooker, BBQ gas burner, rubber hose, and wear some gloves when you do it. It works extremely well.

    DC
     
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  14. Randy Jones

    Randy Jones TDPRI Member

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    I use a paint stripper heat gun on my bending pipe. Stuffed tin foil in one end so as not to broil myself. Charcoal heater looks better.
     
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  15. Freeman Keller

    Freeman Keller Tele-Afflicted

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    The classic side bender is kind of airfoil shaped, lets you do different radii. Along with my 3 inch barbie starter I've got a two incher with a propane torch - never did like a blow torch pointed at my belly when I was trying to bend a piece of wood.

    IMG_3504.JPG

    When I bend binding I like to make a good mold and come up with a creative way to clamp it while it cools. Thats a large socket that just fits the inside of the cut. Also I am bending the top and back treble side binding at the same time. When I build an acoustic with no cutaway I bend all four together

    IMG_3505.JPG

    You'll break a few so I usually make a couple of extras

    IMG_3509.JPG

    Its nice when they just drop in place

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  16. SacDAve

    SacDAve Poster Extraordinaire

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    I did some test with dying binding strips. I took a 1" copper pipe added a threaded plug on one end (FIP fitting & plug) then added a T with a gauge, Schrader valve to pressurize it. I filled it up with binding strips then poured a strong of water-based dye into the pipe sealed it up pumped to 120PSI. in about an hour the pressure dropped to about 100 PSI wasn’t a lot of free space in the pipe so I assume the dye was being forced into the strips. Pumped it back up to 120PSI and let it sit for a couple days. The dye penetrated the wood really well, I did a couple deferent colors using what ever types of wood I had laying around. Besides having a lot of fun and building a completely over thought retired Pipefitter contraption, the dye was not stable any moisture on it would bleed. I still have the set up I’m thinking next time (someday) using an alcohol-based dye followed by another pressurized session with something like a thinned-out lacquer might stabilize it.
     
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  17. Freeman Keller

    Freeman Keller Tele-Afflicted

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    Interesting. All the staining I have ever done is just applying the stain to the wood and let it be absorbed. Flame absorbs it at different rates which pops the figure so nicely. I might sand some of it back trying to leave it in the flames and take it back out of the side grain.

    In theory the same dyes can be dissolved in either water or alcohol - water is supposed to be a little easier to manage - blending and fading and stuff like that. But one of the reasons for using one or the other is the finish that is going on top. James Condino who does incredible hand rubbed stains on his mandolins uses water based stain because he French polishes - he says the alcohol in the FP plus all the rubbing would screw up the finish. On the other hand Roger Siminoff says he (and Gibson) used alcohol based stains because they were finishing in lacquer.

    I have only used Colortone dyes diluted with denatured alcohol for my stains and 'bursts. I also apply it before any sealers so it has the maximum ability to soak into the wood. I seal after staining to try to keep it from bleeding back out.

    I should add, I consider myself a complete beginner at this. I'm trying to follow established advice and my results are pretty good up to this point, but I'm still learning.
     
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  18. crazydave911

    crazydave911 Poster Extraordinaire

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    Sigh, this question brings back SOOOO many memories, guess I'm about to show my age. Back in the prehistoric (a little later than Jurassic) we used many things to stain wood, specifically binding.
    But first, with all due respect to my friend Dave, a steambox here, in America is a bad idea.Unless you're a real fan of all the beautiful kinds of oak we grow here, leave steam alone. A LOT of the domestic woods here, that I use a lot will simply explode being bent after steam, specifically a favorite,sycamore.Some you can but it's not really worth it to experiment. And having worked in a boatyard as a kid, the steambox was no pleasant place, and of course dangerous.
    Now back to dye :),my favorite back in the day was food coloring (McCormick) or Rit Dye used for clothing and was commonly available at the local store, even IGA (yes folks, I'm from the South) both of those combined with uhhh,moonshine. We'd have used Everclear but there just wasn't any lol.Now I commonly used shellac to tint as well as pore fill so why didn't the alcohol mess it up? Well you have to go pre Jurassic (or just Google it) for this but the natural solution is egg wash. long story short when you crack your eggs for breakfast decant the yellows out to eat and put the whites back in the fridge. BTW, if your wife is so inclined advise her they're are NOT for her pie miranque. Before you go to finish said binding or whatever you may have dyed beat the whites into a froth but no more.Apply to the surface with one of those assorted brushes you bought at Micheal's awhile back (you DID buy some right?) and let it dry.Apply your finish of choice let dry completely then scrape your bindings.ABS bindings have provoked some BAD habits like multiple scrapings etc. In the Jurassic when you picked up your new custom guitar it wasn't unusual to smell the finish (nitro,shellac,varnish etc and get a few miniature wood shavings on your Sunday shirt.By even touching it meant you had paid the man,in FULL.
    About all there is to it from where I sit and yes, I'll turn 60 in September lol


    Dave

    Ps,ahhh the proof, almost 40 years young :D

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    Last edited: May 25, 2019
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  19. Davecam48

    Davecam48 Friend of Leo's Ad Free Member

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    A mere child of 60 years!..................I wonder how you got so wise and good looking in such a short time!!! :lol:

    DC
     
  20. crazydave911

    crazydave911 Poster Extraordinaire

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    LOL,I'll be sure and tell the little woman that,not that it will work :rolleyes:.The thing I remember best is drinking a snort of that 'shine when you fell into the moaning chair all builders have.Where you plop down when you realize you just glued part A to part B backwards :cry:

    Dave
     
    Last edited: May 25, 2019
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