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Discussion in 'The Stomp Box' started by csapo, Oct 31, 2013.
Definitely more wiring but not that much more intensive really.
I can build pedals in my sleep - not bragging, just have built too many to possibly count. Maybe it's at the 4000+ mark now? I honestly have not kept count (started building stuff regularly over two decades ago - it adds up, I guess ).
But that said - anything like a TS clone from General Guitar Gadgets barely would take an hour. There's just not enough pieces or complexity to slow it down beyond that.
Higher parts count in the Dumbloid? The Accent pot and Jazz/Rock switch the only "extras." I don't think that the J/R switch would be useful for many, at least not as Shin implemented it - BIG cap AFTER the output buffer.
...And the Accent pot really just constitutes running 3 more wires - no BFD IMO.
I mean - I could build a SHO in about 20 minutes, and IMO a V1 BB clone is a little faster to build than a TS because:
- no in and out buffers
- the handful of caps are all primarily .1uF or .01uF, so you can almost be asleep at the switch!
...But we are still talking about a really basic drive box with just a dual op amp and not much more. The buffers add some extra parts, but it's not really much of anything, IMO.
You really have to move up a step to something like the ODR-1 for it to be a drive box with just a few knobs but what is really almost IMO a ridiculous amount of circuit complexity.
This all assumes that it's a turn-key build and you've got a pre-fabbed PCB - a self-etch or even a vero build will add potentially significant build time. But getting a pre-fabbed TS PCB is not a problem at all.
I use a fast drying, no mojo goop. I don't believe in magic.
I don't doubt that at all. I've seen how fast experienced, skilled people can work. PCB, vero, whatever. I'm SLOOOOWWWW.
I don't even try to be fast. And you've seen my handy work. If I tried to go any faster, well, never mind.
So I assume Taylo C isn't anywhere as pathetically slow as I am.
Me too, with every resistor,cap, transistor I'm thinking 'this sucker could completely spoil a gig'. I'm starting to care about tidy wire routing too, the photo above looks kinda rats-nesty. On top of that, my eyesight is nothing to write home about...
I havn't posted on this thread yet but I'll sum up my feelings on $300.00-$600.00 pedals below.
I think that is just a good way to go. IMO, slower initial pass = less time spent debugging or tracing down issues further down the line. So it actually saves time, and we (meaning anyone) tend to notice more things that might be helpful.
Lots of these DIY designs don't take into consideration where the wires for everything attach to the board. It makes the layout easier to design, but can make assembly/troubleshooting a PITA when you have wires sprouting out of the middle of the board and such.
...Point being with these little experimenter's boards builds is that they really should be kept for prototyping purposes anyway - just something for the designer to quickly knock up on a board. After everything is finessed, the layout IMO should be redone.
If you look at Shin's layout, it looks like things never made it past the prototyping stage, given where the wires come out of the board. If someone is going to build a somewhat larger number of the same thing, IMO it's preferable to come up w/a layout that has all the wire terminations in a row on one edge of the board, or at least with some things maybe placed in proximity to where their actual off-board component will mount.
It can really make life a lot easier. Wires can be routed under jacks, for instance. Ground points can be kind of "planned out." The whole need for what looks like a sort of "wiring harness" can be eliminated.
If you look at the builds with what I consider to be some of the best thought out wire routing, cable ties are mostly or entirely not necessary.
...Unless you are doing the "mimic Harry Joyce thing," I sort of learned some lead dress tricks from things like tube amps - no cable ties in the bulk of those. You actually want signal wires crossing a "power wire" at ~90 degrees, if possible - bundling them all up with a cable tie will introduce problems in most cases.
Good wire routing reduces headaches and helps to ensure trouble free operation. With something simple like a dirt box (like this), you can even (eventually) keep it just to one color of wire if you have stuff routed in a "logical layout" fashion, IMO.
If only that had top-mounted jacks I'd be all over it.
Ive had a lot of dirt pedals and I have to say the Moog Minifooger is the most versatile Od Ive ever used.
It is unbelieveable the different voices of OD you can get out of this pedal. It also does a wah if you use an expression pedal.
It can get almost any type of amp distortion from Fender to Hiwatt.
This pedal blows the Ethos and the Shin out of the water. My opinion of course.
I like the Ethos. Especially the Ethos Amp. But I can make my Minifooger sound exactly like an Ethos OD.. Or even Better. Much more control The Moog MF 101 is even better.
I do think that the Ethos Amp is the best sounding 30 watt solid state amp ive ever heard. Especially with an EV EVM 12L and a Thiele cabinet.
But Im sold on the Moog Pedal Platform. From Minifoogers to Moogerfoogers and the 2 500 series Rackmout Delay and Ladder filter. Which is what the Minifooger is. Only a small stomp box version.
I know 0 about how it is constructed and chip vlues ect. But it looks like a Very Complicated Pedal. And some of it is not readily visible.
Here are a few gut shots.
Any opinions about how this thing looks on the inside ? It looks pretty good to me.
what the hey are those things on the left (he says, showing how little he knows about electronics)?
The three black and silver things? 1/4 jacks for I/O and the expression pedal.
Yep. You can also turn it into a clean or dirty wah and also control the filter cut off of the pedal via expression pedal. Its really useful.
Best Wah Ive ever used. Clean or dirty.
It does everything from OD to Fuzz.
It is not a 1 trick pony and it works with both single coil and humbuckers and low and high gain amps and is recommended for use to overdrive a high gain amp.
Heres some info on it.
The MF Drive is a unique, filter-based overdrive pedal that employs a Moog Ladder Filter, boutique FET amplifiers, and classic OTAs in its drive section making it highly reactive to input gain and picking dynamics. The bi-polar tone control and sweep-able filter work with input gain to offer each player completely customizable sounds from creamy British overdrive to cranked American tube amplifier and even fuzz. When the filter Peak switch is engaged and an expression pedal is connected, the harmonic content is shifted to the filter’s cutoff position adding tonal and dirty wah performance possibilities not found elsewhere.
GAIN- Sets the input level sent through the OTA before passing through the 4-pole Moog Ladder filter. At lower settings, the MF Drive is cleaner with a smooth breakup. As Gain increases, OTA and filter distortion increase causing the MF Drive to become more aggressive and reactive to picking dynamics
DRIVE - In the down position the Gain knob range is from +6.8dB to +48dB. In the up position the gain range is from +16dB to +57dB. This allows for extended control over gain-staging the input of the MF Drive.
FILTER- Interacts heavily with the Tone knob and filter Peak switch. With Peak off, the filter can be used to reduce top end and add heft to an amplifier. With Peak engaged, the filter can be used to add low, mid, or high frequency boost to your instrument. The MF-Drive by nature has a large bottom end, so this position is extremely useful for dialing in a more focused guitar tone.
PEAK- When engaged, Peak creates a +15dB boost at the Filter cutoff. It is extremely useful for accentuating mid-range or high frequencies. When paired with an expression pedal, Peak unlocks a whole new range of performance sounds.
TONE- A variable Lowpass/Mid-Scoop/Highpass voicing section sent through a boutique FET for color. At minimum, the sound is dark and full. Approaching the Mid position the sound varies from a slightly scooped American tube amp to a more British, mid-forward tone. At maximum position, the sound is present and articulate with a smooth, rolled of low-end.
OUTPUT- The output level of the MF-DRIVE is extremely hot to offer a wide range of tones from clean to dirty. With proper gain-staging, the MF Drive can also be used as a boost or wah pedal.
EXPRESSION PEDAL INPUT- This input is assigned to Filter cutoff. Use it for massive swells or engage filter Peak to create a tunable dirty wah. This setting sounds amazing on bass guitar.
• True Bypass
• Designed to sound and feel like a cranked tube amplifier without the noise
• Extremely reactive to input volume and picking dynamics.
• American and British amplifier versatility that when pushed approaches Fuzz
• Works great as a dirty boost for high gain amplifiers
• Expression pedal control of the filter creates a tunable, dirty or clean wah
• Designed to perform with any Guitar, Amp, or Bass guitar configuration
Here is to me the King and End All OD for Tone shaping.. and a Bunch of other applications.
And will work with Any instrument
Especially if you want to come up with your own sounds.
The Ladder - Moog Music’s first 500 series module!
"That thing is endlessly deep. You could use it on about every instrument to make it more interesting or give it it’s own character… I could play with it for days" -Michael Wagener
"Its a really powerful tone shaping tool. While I thought I would be using it like one would use a filter in a modular synth, I found more varied positions for it to play as an EQ and subharmonic helper. It's great for helping anemic drums explode, creating dub bass sounds and modern guitar textures. Pretty awesome and a great companion to my old Moog 3 band Parametric EQ!" -Ryan Hewitt
"The Moog Ladder filters manage to marry the tone and tactile advantage of analog hardware with the flexibility of plugins. They have immediately become indispensable tools for shaping my sounds on the way to the DAW." -Fabrice Dupont
The Ladder is a Dynamic Transistor Ladder Filter that is based on Bob Moog's original ladder filter designs. Don't be fooled by its small size, The Ladder is a powerful and fantastic sound sculpting tool that allows for creative and unique sound shifting and shaping. By design, The Ladder sports the smoothest all analog Low Pass and High Pass filter section. Simply adjust the Cutoff knob to add vibe, warmth or tonal adjustment. Choose LP to add analog vibe and warmth to a sound or select HP for sweetening and relieving the heft of a sound.
The Envelope section of The Ladder is where things get really cool:
- Variable Attack and Release controls allow you to perfectly dial in the behavior of The Ladder's envelope section. Use these controls to open and close the envelope as fast as lightning, or slow as molasses.
- Use the Amount control in Positive or Negative mode for mild to extreme sound shaping and manipulation. From slight timbral excitement and voicing to extreme compression-like behavior. Even reversed filter action is achievable!
- The Resonance control used with The Ladder’s other features allows for the creation of sweet, dynamic and even speech like behavior. Use it to tune The Ladder to a sound source… or not. You can excite or accentuate specific frequencies as well as create completely new unique and wild sounds.
NOTE: The Ladder's Resonance control will push the unit into self-oscillation. This can be used for effect if desired.
The 2Pole/4Pole switch allows you to select how aggressive your filter slope is. 2 pole is equal to 12db per octave which is smooth and sweet, while 4 pole is 24db per octave which is hard and aggressive.
You also have a hard wire Bypass for totally transparent routing and A/B comparison
Audio I/O: Balanced line level via 500 rack. +19dBµ to -16dBµ input accepted.
Filter Type: 2 and 4 pole dynamic low-pass & high-pass transistor Ladder Filter
Envelope Type: RMS detector, bi-polar with variable attack & release
Attack time: Better than 250µS to 2.0 seconds depending on program material and level.
Release time: Better than 150mS to 2.0S depending on program material and level.
Envelope Control: Positive and Negative Modulation
Input Impedance: Nominally 24KΩ balanced differential, 12KΩ unbalanced single ended.
Output Impedance: Nominally 50Ω differential 25Ω single ended.
Max. Output Level: Better than +22dBµ, balanced.
Drive Gain: 36dB Range of control
Output Gain: 36dB Range of control
Frequency Response: Better than +/-0.5dB 20Hz – 20KHz pass band. Better than +/- 1.5dB 5Hz – 24KHz pass band.
Bypass: Hard Relay True Bypass
Power Consumption: Less than 105mA +16V, less than 75mA -16V.
The Ladder isn't your average filter. It's a big step up
Also the White Device it the Moog MF 101 Filter.
All can be used with expression pedal
There's one obvious difference between a jet phaser and a dumble drive-oid regardless of build time. The original Roland units command a fairly lofty price and buying a good clone of one for half the price of an original might be a good buy if it's something a person wanted.
I know my buddy's pricing on his pedals is always based on time and component cost+difficulty of build so I'll assume he must be charging 3 bills for the phase because he feels it's sufficient compensation for his time. I know him well enough to know he doesn't throw a high price on an easy build just because people would pay that price, found him to be pretty ethical with his business practices.
I wasn't trying to imply you buddy is ripping people off at all.
Just answering your question.
once upon a time I didn't care about lead dress ... then I tackled a sansamp gt2 build over the weekend. initial build was a hum machine, lead dress and some shielded input/output wire and I've got the hum knocked down to the very highest gain settings which I guess tracks with the original ... I went with the op275(read its praises from 11ga on another thread) over the tl072 and I have to say I'm keeping that one filed away for any build where the opamp is expected to do the heavy lifting(cough cough, dumbloid).
UPDATE AND SPOILAGE ALERT !!! To all of you still reeling in shock from the closure of RetroTeleRod's House of Goop and Chicken Nuggets I'm afraid I have even more ill tidings to report. (to anyone not familiar with my story, please consult pages 9,10,11 and 12 of this thread) It appears at this point in time that negotiations concerning my new line of EricJay's Toenally Top Tier Celebrity Foot Gear have collapsed! Not to step on anyone's toes but I'm unaccustomed to dealing with Divas and I can't bear another moment of all the drama. Sorry friends it appears that all my dreams of Flip Flops have flopped! But I for one am relieved to be out of the jam! This of course means that all the other ancillary products like Tru-Plexi SPF 40 Chicken Nugget Flavored Sun Lotion, Butler Beach 'Brellas and Jumbo Faux Fuzzy Face Towels and Washcloths will never see the light of day either. Don't despair for me however. As the old saying goes, "You can't keep a Goop man down"! I shall overcome this stumbling block in my way and not let such a snag cause me to falter! I have an itch for greatness that gnaws at me like a bad case of athletes foot! With your continuing love and support I'll get past all of this unpleasantness and move on with my life. Remember me friends! Keep my motto alive "FRODO LIVES, FREE RetroTeleRod" !!! Bye for now. Happy Tone Hunting, Rod.
Seems like peoples focus is off.
I can't be the only one that finds humor how many of the FSB folks are now working on building "YATS", after dissing and ridiculing it for about 6 months.
I think its funny because every build they do is money AN and shin don't get. It certainly doesn't speak to any particular brilliance in the circuit design as fsb is littered with threads that don't concern the dumbloid where those same people are building those pedals too. Btw its funnier that you don't get it yet.
Well, you have to admit, it was probably the most relentlessly hyped pedal of the past year as well as the most controversial. Also the Dumbloid is only available to try out in what, three cities? Building one is the only way most of these guys will get to sample it without paying what now seems like a ridiculous amount of money to Shin's or AN.