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Seeking Twin Reverb * Silverface from 1967-1976 * Differences within Silverfaces???

Discussion in 'Amp Central Station' started by Toppscore, Mar 11, 2012.

  1. StephaninMelb

    StephaninMelb Banned

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    Here is the Silverface Twin Reverb Ultralinear Schematic (135W) if anyone needs it.
     

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  2. Toppscore

    Toppscore Banned

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    Singin' Dave (Great name by the way)!
    Do you sing and play lead guitar for the Blasters? Foghat? Savoy Brown? hahaha :rolleyes:

    Thanks for the information. I'll think about the logo and seller, as I've said nothing, yet. But, as silly it is of me
    not to notice, it is like missing the hood ornament on your Jaguar :rolleyes: We shall see. I have some bids out.

    Questions for you, Singin' Dave, if you will please:
    Do you know that there are Silverface amps from apparently
    late 1967 and early 1968 that DO NOT have the Drip Edge grill trim?

    I have posted a picture below of my 1968 Fender Dual Showman Reverb TFL5000D amp head.
    SN#13971 makes it the 71st Showman Reverb made, and it has a February 1968 birthday.
    Posted below are a couple of pictures.

    Is it the NON-Drip-Edge grill trim Silverface 1968's that have these black lines you discussed?

    Or, do all 1968's have the blackline faceplates? When did Fender discontinue the blackline faceplates?

    Is it a dead giveaway that the blackline faceplates have the AB763 Blackface circuitry?
    And that any Sliverface without the blacklines will need the Blackface modifications to be "Blackfaced"?

    Is it true that the AB763 circuitry designed for non-reverb Showman amp heads
    was also used for the 1967/1968 Showman REVERB amp heads?

    Also, what do you know about the earlier pre-Drip Edge Silverface amps
    (Showmans and any other Fender model if they exist? Thank you. Toppscore :cool:
     

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  3. dmarcus30

    dmarcus30 Tele-Holic

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    I sent you a PM. I'm in Capitola and have a SF 1973 Twin that has been bf'ed.

    Dan
     
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  5. Green Lantern

    Green Lantern Tele-Afflicted

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    Um, thank you. I had to one-up the drummer of my band : p

    [​IMG]

    The Twin Reverb uses Jensen C12n's, and the Jazz Chorus uses Roland Heavy Duty Transducers.
     
  6. Toppscore

    Toppscore Banned

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    So, got your message. Thank you.
    What style of music do you play???
    Toppscore :cool:
     
  7. Toppscore

    Toppscore Banned

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    The Fender Jazz Chorus ~ isn't that Fender's
    solid state twin reverb with some amp modeling?

    How do you like it? What year is yours? Would you buy another one?
    Toppscore :cool:
     
  8. StephaninMelb

    StephaninMelb Banned

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    ...
     
  9. Toppscore

    Toppscore Banned

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    Stephanin. What do you think about my 1968 Dual Fender Showman
    above without the word "Dual" and without apparent drip edge trim?
    Something wrong?
    71st Showman Reverb made?
    I will take it out and shoot some photos tonight.
    What would I look for or pictures that you'd want
    to verify the cabinet & chassis are a match?
    I am willing to double check. Toppscore
     
    Last edited: Mar 16, 2012
  10. Green Lantern

    Green Lantern Tele-Afflicted

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    Actually, Fender has nothing to do with the Jazz Chorus. It's made by a company called Roland. Roland is very well known for their keyboard and synthesizer equipment, as well as loads of other music equipment. The Jazz Chorus was somewhat of a breakthrough in guitar amplification, and as such has become a very classic amplifier. It features on-board stereo chorus between the two twelve inch speakers. Many people will say it "has the best chorus ever," but I'm not going to make such a claim. I will say that it is very, very good.

    The JC-120 doesn't have anything to do with the Twin Reverb, other than being a combo amp with a 2x12 configuration, and having a lot of clean headroom. They're two totally unrelated amps, although they are often pitted against each other and compared by musicians.

    Yes, JC-120's are solid state amplifiers. Some don't like that, but I do not view it as a detriment at all, because they're quality, high end amplifiers. They're very neutral sounding, although they have a quality to them that I liken to compressors. A sort of percussive snap and pop to the sound. They do not have as much bass response as Twin Reverbs, but they are more even sounding all around. There is reverb. It's not bad at all, but it's not jaw dropping. A Fender blackface or silverface has much better reverb.

    They are physically larger than Twin Reverbs, though not as heavy. I know this well, as I moved both of them yesterday afternoon, in and out of my car. As the name suggests, they make good jazz amplifiers, as they have an extremely clean and neutral sound that lets the guitar's tone and the player's nuances do almost all of the speaking. JC-120's would fit just about anything, though, with the help of pedals. I really can't think of a better amplifier to use as a pedal platform.

    I think they're great amps. If someone who was after a loud and clean amp, who didn't want to worry about tubes, asked for my recommendation, Roland JC-120 would be the first thing to pop out of my mouth. You could also comfortably amplify other things out of them, like vocals or keys. For those purposes, I would prefer them over Fender Twin Reverbs. This, by no means, makes them bad guitar amps, though. Oh, also, they sound great at any volume. There is no "push the tubes to make the amp come alive," because there are no tubes. You'll get nice sounds at any level. You won't be missing anything at lower volumes.

    Oh, there is no digital modeling in these amplifiers. They're very simple and straightforward. My Jazz Chorus is probably about a 1983. I say this based on certain research I've done. It's hard to tell exactly, because Roland kept extremely crappy records back then. Even they wouldn't be exactly sure what year mine is.

    If my JC-120 was somehow destroyed, I'm very confident I'd pick up another one.
     
  11. Toppscore

    Toppscore Banned

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    Hi, Green Latern!
    My mistake, it was the Fender Chorus Amp line-up of several
    different Fender "Chorus" amp models that I investigated :oops:
    Lots of cool stuff on that one, also, and from the 1990s.

    Good to know about the Roland with the heavy duty Atomic Bomb speakers :eek:

    Personally, I believe the Chorus solid state amps can make for a
    great substitution for tube amps, IMHO, from what I have experienced :grin:

    Take care and thank you for your sharing. Toppscore :cool:
     
  12. Singin' Dave

    Singin' Dave Friend of Leo's

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    Topscore. Stephen covered most of it but one observation to his post:


    - I agree that ALL SF fenders have drip edge from late '67 through mid/late '69. I believe drip edge was dropped closer to June or July maybe August of '69. I've seen late '69 SF's with no drip edge and own a '69 Vibrochamp with no drip edge.

    - the "blackline" was on ALL SF fenders for about a year - mid'late '67 to may/mid 68. Here is my old '68 champ with blackline (note logo is from mid 70's):

    [​IMG]

    and my late '67 Bassman with blackline

    [​IMG]


    and my '69 VC:

    [​IMG]

    Good on you for pulling as much of the Fender SF amp history as you can out of this thread! You're getting detail in one thread that took some of us a LONG time to piece together.

    As you can see above, modifications and changes to cosmetics, circuits and more were common place throughout Fenders history, with the SF no exception. It is difficult to impossible to validate exact dates when changes were made - Leo Fender (and CBS behind him) were notorius for using every part they had on hand - old stock, new stock etc. Many parts were stuck at bottom of bins for months even years, so its not uncommon to have a pot or transformer in an amp that predates other part codes by two years. Same for tube charts glued into cabs. Very common to have wrong circuits listed on a tube chart vs. what amp actually is. Only way to validate is pull the chassis and check the circuit.

    Over the years as the vintage market has become so large, guys have pieced together history and general, almost to the month, timelines on circuit, cabinet, cosmetic etc. modifications, but its no exact science. One must really examine codes from all the parts that went into amps - transformer, speaker, pot even capacitor codes are all used to date Fender amps beyond the serial numbers stamped on their chassis. People basically go with the LATEST code they find and assume their amp was finally finished off production line a month or two after that.

    As for your '68 DSR, I'm betting it may have had a different grill put on at some point or isn't a '68....
     
  13. StephaninMelb

    StephaninMelb Banned

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    Yes post your pictures of your Dual Showman when you can and we can all go through a dating exercise with the good people here on TDPRI. The usual "close-up views:

    • Chassis ID number
    • Power transformer numbers
    • Output transformer numbers
    • Reverb transformer (if there is one)
    • Power tubes (bases and bottle numbers)
    • Preamp tubes (bases and bottle numbers)
    • Faceplate close-ups (Left - Middle - Right)
    • Front view
    • Rear view (panel on and off)
    • Circuit shot (Left - Right)
    • Tube Chart

    Speaker Cab
    • Full shot of showing all speakers
    • Close-up full view one speaker
    • Close-up ID marks for dating and model ID
    • Any tags inside the cabinet
    • Dimensions (since there were a few models over the years)

    At the bottom is the Fender 1968 Price List showing the Showman amplifier product line. Also prices adjusted to 2012 dollars.

    The TFL5000D under the Showman name on on your amplifier faceplace was an ID that indicated whether that amp was a Domestic model or Export model. The D in TFL5000D shows that amp is a USA model. Fender used this market ID between 1968 and 1973.

    Below are Showman and Dual Showman Chassis Serial Number "Reservations" for Brownface through Silverface years. Note what most people see on the Internet has some gross errors. The 1st issue is the had a number overlap of one digit between each year. They started and ended the year O at end of number when each year actually closed with 9. This created a double allocation. Also in most public data lots of typing errors. I am trying to slowly verify this with Fender company records.

    Unfortunately the range of Chassis Serial Number reservations slots for your "Allocated" number is a rare range where there is some contention on the starting sequence. Mainly because it starts a new sequence without starting at One and alternatively doesn't attach to a number sequence of "cousin" amps that share the same circuit model. I will try and work this out if possible through alternate records. Hopefully that amp has a good readable Tube Chart and the Visual ID process will give you much more production info anyway.

    Silverface Dual Showman Reverb with the 100W circuit did have "Dual" in the name on the faceplate. I will have to check earlier years.

    I will lookup the drip-edge and faceplate details for that amp. Fender didn't change fine design details across all the amp models. The introduction and drop dates of drip-edge and black-line are model specific but generally close to each other. Since they are such fine details records on hard to locate. I will get back to you on Showman / Showman Dual drip-edge and black-line separately.

    The funniest ID marker yet I have seen @ TDPRI was whether jewel pilot light special washer was present or not. Apparently on one Fender model the faceplate pilot light hole was drilled out too big so Fender one year came up with a wider "cupped" washer to hold the light. Silly but used as a visual marker to date a particular model and year of amp. This just goes to show you our fine TDPRI members are not likely to miss much.

    Brownface / Blonde Showman with 6G14 and 6G14-A Circuits
    00001 to 00349......1960
    00350 to 00799......1961
    00800 to 01499......1962
    01500 to 01799......1963

    Blackface Showman (Non-reverb) with AA763 and AB763 Circuits
    A00100 to A01399......1963 <-- New Chassis serial number allocation sequence.
    A00001 to A00099 not validated in Fender company records.
    A01400 to A01699......1964
    A01700 to A04299......1965
    A04300 to A07799......1966
    A07800 to A11999......1967

    Silverface Showman (Non-reverb) with AB763 Circuit
    A12000 to A12499......1967
    A12500 to A14999......1968

    Silverface Dual Showman (non-Reverb) with AB763 and AC568 Circuits
    A12000 to A12499......1967
    A12500 to A14999......1968

    Dual Showman Geographic Market ID 1968 – 1973 (Listed under Showman Brand on Faceplate)

    TFL5000D = Domestic Fender Dual Showman Reverb
    TFL5000X = Export Fender Dual Showman Reverb

    Silverface Dual Showman Reverb with AA768, AA769 and AA270 Circuits
    A13900 to A16500 ......1968 Issue with starting number of 1968 Chassis Serial Reservation Numbers

    SN#13971 makes it the 71st Showman Reverb made, and it has a February 1968 birthday. <-- Toppscore's Dual Showman Reverb

    (A15500 to A16499......1968) Expected sequence not verified with Fender company records
    A16500 to A22399......1969
    A22400 to A25599......1970
    A25600 to A36999......1971
    A37000 to A50499......1972
    A50500 to A67999......1973
    A68000 to A80999......1974
    A81000 to A99999......1975

    Fender 1968 Price List – Showman Amplifiers Product Line

    1968 List Price.....................2012 Dollars (Inflation Adjusted to 2012 Value)
    Dual Showman w/Reverb & Vibrato – Bare Head
    $530.................................. $3,467.28

    Dual Showman (Non-reverb) – Bare Head
    $480.................................. $3,140.18.

    Showman (Non-reverb) – Bare Head
    $440.................................. $2,878.50

    Dual Showman Amp w/Reverb, Vibrato & Speaker Cab w/2 x JBL D130F – 15”
    $1000................................. $6,542.04

    Showman Amp w/Vibrato & Speaker Cab w/1 x JBL D130F – 15”
    $690................................... $4,514.01

    Showman Amp w/Vibrato & Speaker Cab w/1 x JBL D140F – 15”
    $708...................................$4,631.76

    Dual Showman Speaker Cab w/2 x JBL D140F – 15”
    $500....................................$3,271.02

    Dual Showman Speaker Cab w/2 x JBL D130F – 15”
    $470...................................$3,074.76

    Showman Speaker Cab w/1 x JBL D140F – 15”
    $365.................................$2,387.84

    Showman Speaker Cab w/1 x JBL D130F – 15”
    $350.................................$2,289.71

    Showman Solid-State Amps

    Super Showman (Solid-state) XFL-1000 Amp Head
    With Fuzz, Distortion, Vibrato, Reverb and Two Speaker Cabs with 4 x 12” Heavy Duty Speakers

    $1495.................................$9,780.35

    Super Showman (Solid-state) XFL-2000 Amp Head
    With Fuzz, Distortion, Vibrato, Reverb and Two Speaker Cabs with 8 x 10” Heavy Duty Speakers

    $1695...................................$11,088.76

    Super Showman (Solid-state) XFL-1000 Amp Head
    With Fuzz, Distortion, Vibrato, Reverb and Two Speaker Cabs with 4 x JBL D120F – 12”

    $1995..................................$13,051.37

    Super Showman (Solid-state) XFL-2000 Amp Head
    With Fuzz, Distortion, Vibrato, Reverb and Two Speaker Cabs with 8 x JBL D110F – 10”

    $2395................................$15,668.19

    The US Inflation Calculator uses the latest US government CPI data released on March 16, 2012. The next data update from the US government occurs on April 13, 2012 and will include March inflation numbers.
     
    Last edited: Mar 16, 2012
  14. StephaninMelb

    StephaninMelb Banned

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    Fender 1968 Price List Amplifier Section

    Here is another copy of the Fender 1968 Price List Amplifier Section. Hopefully this one is more legible...

    Right Click and save it to view larger on your computer.
     

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  15. alnicopu

    alnicopu Friend of Leo's

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    the TR schematic you posted is the same one fender sent me. I can tell by the 3 ring binder holes (Big black dots on the side). The guy said that one was popular for them to send folks because it's a hard one to find. One of the popular amp techs in Atlanta said he had to do the same when he had one come into his shop.
     
  16. Toppscore

    Toppscore Banned

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    I started a dedicated TDPRI thread for my
    1968 Fender Dual Showman Reverb TFL5000D

    as questions within my own mind are coming up for this
    particular 100w AA768 Dual Showman Reverb amp
    which are entirely different from this Twin Reverb thread.

    I noticed "top & bottom" Drip Edges" STILL INSTALLED on my 1968 Dual Showman Reverb
    drip edge amp (see the DSR thread). Missing are both side edges & four corner pieces. Weird!

    The Showman Reverb is the first amp I've purchased since high school,
    and I've added three more 1960s Fender Reverb amps to my collection during
    the past month. Getting used to the many many various Silverface nuances,
    is "Simply a Learning Curve" of mistakes and passion ;)
    Thanks, Toppscore :cool:
     
  17. Toppscore

    Toppscore Banned

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    Thank you, Singin' Dave. One great reason to be involved within the TDPRI Forum
    are the fantastic responses and ideas the OPB (Original Poster Boy) :rolleyes: requests,
    and the fantastic thoughts nobody new to think about :grin:

    I did a lot of work on the early 1950s Fender Bassman History:
    5B6, 5D6, 5D6A, 5E6
    Published it on the Wiki/Bassman site. Open for updates and mistakes.
    My next two studies are the Fender Twin and the Fender Showman.
    Maybe I can contribute towards non-technical ways. My pleasure :grin:
    Toppscore :cool:
     
  18. Toppscore

    Toppscore Banned

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    Thank you so much, Stephanin.
    Can I or you copy the above Fender Showman info onto
    the new 1968 Dual Showman TFL5000D I started???
    Thank you. Toppscore :cool:
     
  19. electronix

    electronix TDPRI Member

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    Just thought I'd point out, that while a good indicator, a "blackline" faceplate doesn't automatically mean an AB763 circuit inside. I acquired a Twin recently, looks early '68 with dripedge, "blackline" faceplate, and snowmen 8 knobs. However opened up, chassis stamp of late June '68, and AC568 circuit. Still has cloth wiring however, definitely an early transition. Moral of the story is blackline doesn't automatically = AB763! FWIW
     
  20. StephaninMelb

    StephaninMelb Banned

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    Can someone please post a picture with the rear of a Master Volume Twin showing the two speakers in "staggered" configuration. We will put in side-by-side with a standard parallel config speaker shot for reference.
     
  21. StephaninMelb

    StephaninMelb Banned

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    Is your Tube Chart marked RF for June 68? Can you tell us your Twin's Chassis Serial Number? Is your Tube Chart printed for AC568 circuit?

    There is no way with any recognised dating methodology to tell what time period inside a month a Fender amp of that era was built, so it would be impossible to pin-point production to "late" June 68. The month of June 68 yes, just not late in the month.

    The Black-line transition (when it was dropped) occurred in May 1968 and at the same time the circuit transitioned from AB763 to AC568. So if your amp has the AC568 circuit the presence of a Black-line faceplate is either a production line screw-up or amp is an Ampenstein (misconfiguration or parts amp). I think the bulk of amps that don't meet the expected configuration can be determined to have been changed by their owners rather than originally produced by Fender that way on the production floor. These amplifiers are over 40 years old and in many cases have been through several owners and have uncertain origin.

    In the great majority of cases amps will match the expected configuration. This expectation of course only really matters to a serious collector and one should never try and categorize a heavily chopped and changed players amp. A collector isn't interested in those types of amps anyway and an owner of a player amp should just appreciate its tone qualities. In many cases the player amp is the superior amp anyway as it has the benefit of hindsight to tweek the circuitry. These amps can be hard to date as they can be a collection of parts and probably silly to go through the effort. The beauty of a players amp is that one can dig in and make changes without feeling guilt. ...and some of these are ultimate tone machines and what any top guitarist should play through vs a stock rig. Look at The Edge's Vox AC30 - the outside looks like Kaka (its all taped up) and its been to the moon and back but receives top technical care and has a heart of gold. You could never date The Edge's amp as its parts would have been swapped out many times.

    Players amps should be valued by the reputation of the technician who worked on it, any special technical features and value of parts & components invested. If it is a boutique "rebuild" then it should carry a higher price. Unfortunately players amps aren't marketed well.
     
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