replacing 5-hole pickguard w/ 8-hole on a Custom Shop tele-- would you dril the extra holes?

Discussion in 'Telecaster Discussion Forum' started by appar111, Dec 13, 2018.

  1. jrblue

    jrblue Tele-Afflicted

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    So a CS guitar has plastic that warps? Yeesh. I wouldn't drill, as that will devalue the supposedly ":custom shop" "quality" build Either glue the screw heads -- great idea -- of buy a replacement. Better still, tell Fender to send you one. At the price of that guitar, this should not occur.
     
  2. tap4154

    tap4154 Doctor of Teleocity Ad Free Member

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    Just occurred to me this is a Custom Shop Relic Tele.

    Maybe the PG warpage is just part of the relic'ing?
     
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  3. EsquireOK

    EsquireOK Friend of Leo's

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    Firstly: PIX.

    Then...

    No, I would not. There isn't a good reason to do so. It's a replaceable part. Try a new guard. Order one in thicker .090" white if you want (they came with .080" single-ply white guards for a few years in the last days of single-ply Tele guards, so it's not "far out").

    If that doesn't work, I'd get a "Bakelite" (Garolite these days) or anodized aluminum guard, and lacquer it white (or just convert to black guard or gold guard, respectively). Or you can have one made out of a harder white plastic, such as polystyrene (as opposed to the usual PVC or ABS). This is like the plastic used for model kits. It's stiff/brittle, and won't discolor like PVC or ABS. And again, some original Fenders (1950 Esquire NAMM guitars) came with these stiffer polystyrene guards, so it's not that far out that a '55 Tele might have had one installed at some point.

    Also, sorry to state the obvious, but you could just have a 5-hole triple-ply guard made.
     
    Last edited: Dec 13, 2018
  4. appar111

    appar111 Friend of Leo's

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    Yeah man, the pickguard is just regular plastic, and single ply (.060 thickness)— it’s not immune to warping just because it’s on a Fender CS guitar...

    Maybe I should contact them for a replacement tho...worst they can say is no.
     
  5. moosie

    moosie Doctor of Teleocity Silver Supporter

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    You could always get a thicker single ply from WD Music (.90 vs the standard .60). Could get it with five holes, it would look 'correct' in terms of single ply, and it wouldn't warp. Are you sure the five holes on the new guard line up, or will you be drilling all new holes?
     
  6. Solaris moon

    Solaris moon Tele-Meister

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    Um, PVC and ABS are HARDER than polystyrene which is SOFT and the reason that Fender stopped using it in '54 when they first made the Strat which had ALL POLYSTYRENE PLASTIC - NOT Bakelite which is a whole other animal as they all would soon find out! VINYL would be much more durable and would not warp, nor would it break as easily as the POLYSTYRENE pickguards that is Fender is currently using.
     
  7. EsquireOK

    EsquireOK Friend of Leo's

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    You are incorrect in nearly every statement you made.

    Polystyrene is a brittle, hard plastic. So much so, that it is very often mixed with other plastics in order to soften it. If you were to bend a pure polystyrene pickguard, it would snap.

    The only time Fender used it for a pickguard was in 1950, on the black demo Esquires (around 4 dozen produced, IIRC).

    Early 1954 Strats had polystyrene knobs and pickup covers...which break and crack...because they are brittle, not soft. Stratocaster pickguards were at no point made of polystyrene, then or now.

    I did not say anything about Fender Strats using Bakelite, so I don't know where that part of the rant comes in.

    The Fender single-ply white guards that can warp (e.g. the OP's, and pretty much every other single-ply whiteguard since the started being used) are made of ABS or vinyl.
     
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  8. Solaris moon

    Solaris moon Tele-Meister

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    How untrue your statement is as I have worked in not just one, but SEVERAL plastics factories. You cannot mix other plastics with polystyrene as it already IS several compounds. I can tell this from your ignorant statements. First: POLY. Meaning more than one. Styrene which is a SOFT petroluem diluent made to bind together other compounds to be stable enough to cause a chemical reaction that allows it to be first plyable, or maleable and therefore able to hold a shape, but only after being mixed with a monomer. It also can become britte over time in THIN layers and over time it can degrade depending on the formulation that is made from it. It can be formulated several ways. Styrene itself is highly toxic and poisonous therefore it has to be stabilized so that it can be extruded through a mould.

    Also there are several other chemical reactions that are byproducts of each other to form the gases that escape during the extrusion process which is why we had to poke holes in the products that we made from it. This kept it from deforming as these gases did so. Also the UREA FORMALDAHYDE solution that Fender used - and keep this in mind that the polystyrene of the day is not the same as what we use today as any model builder, or model maker can tell you as the formulation has changed drastically to keep it from catching fire so much when moulding, and from being so unstable and therefore able to put UV products in it to keep it from becoming glue after being exposed for years on end. It became brittle over time because there were no emoluents to keep it firm, and stable so that being handled over and over again it would be durable enough to be used for everyday objects which is why it is only used for MODEL KITS and not much else. In the FIFTIES is when these pickguards were made of vinyl as ABS plastic had yet to be invented! The only things that HAD to be made from polystyrene were the pickup covers, switch and tremolo tip along with the knobs as these were all 3d shapes that couldn't be simply made from a flat form. Next time why don't you wait until I'm not at work to ***** at me and make a fool of yourself? Armchair plastics expert!!!
     
  9. EsquireOK

    EsquireOK Friend of Leo's

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    This is just too hilarious. You are making a big stink and throwing out a lot of anger, when a lot of what you are saying is just plain wrong by simple, lazy Internet research. No, I am not a plastic expert, and never claimed to be. But I can read...and I know my old Fenders pretty darned well.

    Let's start with the most basic of lazy-ass exploring. Type "polystyrene" into Google. It's not a formal plastics education, but you can get the quick-n-dirty basics in 10 seconds.

    Third sentence: "General-purpose polystyrene is clear, hard, and rather brittle."

    Of course polystyrene is made of something mixed with styrene (which, of course, has no solid form in and of itself), hence its "poly" in the name. This does not mean that it cannot be mixed with other plastics, as you claim it cannot. My terminology "mixed with other plastics" is perhaps crude and inaccurate layman's language, so let me restate what I mean by that: It can be, and is, formulated in ways apart from the general hard/brittle variant. My point having been (after you made a stink about how polystyrene is not hard) that it is actually naturally so hard and brittle that it is made differently sometimes in order to soften it.

    ...which is basically what you just said. I said: "Polystyrene is a brittle, hard plastic. So much so, that it is very often mixed with other plastics in order to soften it." Replace "mixed with other plastics" with "formulated many ways" (your own words), and we are in agreement. You claim that it is not hard...and then go on a rant all about how it has been made in many different formulations to help fix its problems, among which are its brittleness. So...what's the argument, then?

    The 1950 NAMM Esquire white guards were (with the addition of the white color), general purpose polystyrene, or "Thermocole." These are the ONLY polystyrene (Thermocole) pickguards Fender has ever made. It's plastic airplane model material – CD jewel case material. It snaps when you bend it. Certainly different today than in 1950, I'm quite sure...but that's irrelevant to the discussion, as my suggestion to the OP was about a guard that can be made with today's polystyrene...meaning plastic sheet that acts like a clear jewel case material. I wasn't telling the OP how to perfectly reproduce a 1950 Esquire white guard. I was telling him how to make a guard that won't warp, that's still white. Hell, there are way more materials that what I suggested as well. I just named a few.

    The '50's white guards for Teles and Strats were made of vinyl (PVA or PVC), and sometimes made of ABS (inconsistent purchase of raw goods by the Fender company). They were never made of polystyrene. I never stated they were...but you did, when you said the first Strats had "ALL POLYSTYRENE PLASTIC." Now you come ranting that the white guards were made of vinyl, as if I said anything otherwise. I did not. I said they were PVC or ABS in the '50's...which they very well were. You state that ABS had not been invented in the white guard era...but it had.

    Fender's early Strat knobs, pickup covers, switch tips, and trem tips were technically not general purpose polystyrene like the 1950 black NAMM Esquire white guards, though they are usually referred to as such by guitar nerds/historians. My mistake for referring to them casually as "polystyrene," but that's the terminology most guitar folks use for them (and you yourself said that that's what they were when you said the early Strats has "ALL POLYSTYRENE PLASTIC").

    These early Strat plastics (all but the pickguard) are actually an early formulation of ABS (ABS with a high styrene content). Fender has had chemical analysis of original "tall" '54 Strat knobs/covers/switchtip/tremtip performed. They were found to be ABS with a high styrene content (again, commonly referred to as "polystyrene knobs and covers" by Fender historians, to differentiate them from the later ABS knobs). Yet you claim ABS did not exist then. In fact, ABS was introduced in 1954, according to a 10 second Internet search. Not because I am an plastics "expert"...but because I can do 10 seconds of dumb "armchair" work to learn the basics of something before speaking.

    Let's pare this back down to the actual technical issues up for debate, without all the chaff, verbage, and ad hominem b.s. Simple facts can prove or disprove all of this, without any personal nastiness, rants, or the like.

    I said polystyrene is hard/stiff/brittle. It's like a CD jewel case, or plastic model kit plastic...unless specially formulated to be softer. I said this because a pickguard made of what is basically CD jewel case plastic (i.e. general purpose polystyrene) would solve the OP's problem. Do you still deny this?

    I said the only pickguards Fender ever made from it were on the 1950 black NAMM Esquires. Do you still deny this? (You stated that all early '54 Strat plastic was polystyrene.)

    I said that polystyrene can be made in softer forms. My language was probably not chemically accurate when I said "mixed with other plastics," leading you to rip into me about how it can't be mixed with other plastic because it's already made of of multiple compounds (which doesn't make any sense – something "already" being made of multiple compounds does not mean nothing else can be added). But you later said the same thing that I meant: It can be formulated in many ways to solve various problems. Can we at least come to agreement on this point?

    You say ABS had not been invented yet in the '50's. Do you still stand by this statement?

    You also said that the first Strat guards, knobs, pickups covers, etc. ("ALL POLYSTYRENE PLASTIC") were made out of polystyrene. Do you still stand by this statement?
     
    Last edited: Dec 14, 2018
  10. EsquireOK

    EsquireOK Friend of Leo's

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    FWIW, OP, here is a screen shot of the McMaster-Carr product page for the material I was suggesting. Read the description. Despite all the shouting to the contrary by that guy in this thread, it is a "stiff plastic." Look at any online educational page about polystyrene, and the general purpose form of it will be described as "hard," "stiff," "brittle," etc., like plasticware or a CD jewel case (though there are other types, like foam and the kind used for soft plastic cups). IME with it, it will not "fold" like the guard you have now. It will snap instead...so it will also stay flat.

    I was never speaking as a plastics expert...just as someone who has made guards out of a bunch of different things, from soft to stiff, and who has learned as much as I can about old Fender parts, in order to get my reproductions as vintage correct as I reasonably can. I wasn't informing you how to make a perfect 1950 Fender white guard with exactly the right plastic composition – just offering a suggestion for a white single ply material with more stiffness than the stock guard (that is also, if you get obscure enough, like a material that was, at one brief point, actually used by Fender for a white guard).

    Screen Shot 2018-12-14 at 5.28.18 PM.png
     
    Last edited: Dec 14, 2018
  11. jfgesquire

    jfgesquire Tele-Meister

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    Someone in this thread mentioned using a Classic Vibe pickguard.

    For my vintage blonde CV, it came with a black guard but I got a parchment 1 ply five hole from Allparts. It fits perfectly, lays flat and looks great.

    I like the black guards on a butterscotch Tele, but white on a white-blonde Tele. 20180601_180136.jpeg
     
  12. bender66

    bender66 Poster Extraordinaire Silver Supporter

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    If it warped it was supposed to.

    I'd leave it alone & not give a rats azz.

    Please don't put a 8 hole on it.
     
  13. Solaris moon

    Solaris moon Tele-Meister

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    WHAT?!?! I'm sorry....I must've fallen asleep. I wasn't angry - just sick of all the silly nonsense that you posted. ABS, CBS, whatever. Fender never used it as it was too new and not widely known or used then. Fender used vinyl pickguards - not abs on the '54 Strats regardless of the misinformation of A.R. Ducassoir in his Strat book. The knobs were SOFT polystyrene and no one uses that formulation anymore and haven't since 1954 because of it's softness to begin with! This is why they used a harder plastic for the knobs and tips and pickup covers later on. Either way with your rant you have now derailed this thread from it's original meaning and now we need to get back to that and leave all the personal/trivial B.S. which doesn't matter now any way since Fender has graciously decided to re-release the soft urea formaldihyde formulated plastic parts in the Pure Vintage '54 Accessories kit. YEA!!!! Now we can all have the same dissatisfaction of wear and tear from constant use!
     
  14. Silverface

    Silverface Poster Extraordinaire Ad Free Member

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    A few "points of order" regarding the posting of "non facts" while degrading other members:

    Several types of polystyrene are very brittle. It is made into everything from dinnerware that chips easily to extruded and "blown" foam. Polystyrene is not a "thing", it's a general chemical compound with qualities that vary depending on the formulation - like varying the amounts of ingredients in paint formulations that use precisely the same components ( example - adding water changes viscosity).

    UNTRUE: It's a simple fact easily found - ABS was invented in 1948 and commercially available in 1954. 1954 is in the 1950's.

    FALSE STATEMENT: "Emoluents"? There's no such word. But there' also nothing that sounds vaguely similar used to keep a plastic "firm".

    OTOH if you mean "emollients" - they are skin softeners and not used in plastics. SOFTENERS. :lol:

    ABSOLUTELY UNTRUE . Here's where you really need to explain yourself and your actual experience with plastics, since it took about 3 minutes of research to find published references refuting your "facts".

    You continue to make brash claims and degrade others - but regarding this subject don't know what you're talking about in multiple areas, and invented a word in another. I can point you to dozens of articles regarding coplymerization of polystyrene, but I won't waste my time. Maybe just a couple will keep you from posting more fallacious information and accusing others of being "armchair experts". On these subjects you don't appear to be an expert in or out of an armchair:

    Encyclopedia Britannica:

    Polystyrene, a hard, stiff, brilliantly transparent synthetic resin produced by the polymerization of styrene. It is widely employed in the food-service industry as rigid trays and containers, disposable eating utensils, and foamed cups, plates, and bowls. Polystyrene is also copolymerized, or blended with other polymers, lending hardness and rigidity to a number of important plastic and rubber products.

    Polymersolutions.com:

    Polystyrene also serves as the base component in styrene-acrylonitrile (SAN), a copolymer of styrene and acrylonitrile, sometimes known as propenenitrile. By polymerizing these two monomers together, it is possible to make a plastic that is less flexible than raw polystyrene, but it is more transparent and significantly more resistant to heat and a host of different chemicals. SAN is most commonly used in car headlamps, cassette covers, syringes, and even high quality kitchen appliances like blenders.

    Hopefully this will end the sidetracked journey into misinformation.

     
  15. Solaris moon

    Solaris moon Tele-Meister

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    "

    IMPORTANT: Treat everyone here with respect, no matter how difficult!
    No sex, drug, political, religion or hate discussion permitted here."

    Thank you for your falatious and ignorant arguement as it was totally unnecessary! I don't know why EVERY SINGLE TIME that I post something that you and your ignorant type just HAVE to come in here and post because you see something that you don't agree with, or don't like, or whatever. It only makes for a hostile time here with all the armchair experts that look something up with gookle, or wikipedia, or think that because they built a couple guitars in their basement, bedroom, kitchen table, backyard, or garage that they're suddenly experts! I DON'T NEED your opinions, thoughts, or nasty comments. I don't come here to get information, but I post in the hope of keeping someone from destroying their guitar and having to learn everything the hard way as I did because of either inexperience, or other peoples' stupidity and inexperience. I could just walk away from this site forever and let you all destroy your guitars with shellac, sanding with the wrong grit, using the wrong stain, paint, wiring diagram, etc. but stupid me - I try to HELP others with what EXPERIENCE that I have from the last 30 YEARS of what you people have only done a few times/few instruments and still have no clue as to what is truly what when it comes to guitars. I think I'm done giving advice, and help now. Go ahead and ruin your things thinking you know it all. I don't care any more. You and others like you have ruined this country with your jealousy, hate, unfaithfulness to anyone, and disrespect. Don't bother reporting this post to the moderators for abuse simply because it embarasses you or whatever reason. If I DO happen to come back here - it'll only be to lurk. Pat yourself on the back, but don't break your arm doing so! I'm gone now - you got your way. I won't be around to read any more responses to any of these posts in this thread. And welcome to my ignore list just in case I DO by some happen chance to contact anyone else here for any reason should I change my mind later!
     
  16. Modman68

    Modman68 Tele-Holic

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    There is something really ironic about misspelling “fallacious”.
     
  17. EsquireOK

    EsquireOK Friend of Leo's

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    Bottom line: Almost everything you posted is flat-out wrong, and easily provable as so. You can rant, rave, deflect, avoid, insult, and try to flip the script as much as you want. But facts are facts...and you obviously aren't aware of many.

    1. Much polystyrene is hard and brittle, including the specific material I suggested to the OP.

    2. The only Fenders to ever have polystyrene pickguards, apart from *perhaps* a rare official reissue line of said guitars, were 1950 demo Esquires, not early '54 Strats, as you stated had "ALL POLYSTYRENE PLASTIC."

    3. Early '54 Strats did not use all polystyrene plastics, as you stated. They used vinyl guards, just like most other Fender single-ply ****e guards. And for all the other white plastic, they used a form of ABS with a high styrene content. This has been proven by lab analysis.

    4. The Pure Vintage '54 Strat accessory kit does not feature soft plastic knobs, covers, etc., as you stated. Apparently, you have never owned, handled, or seen with your own eyes these exact plastic parts. I have; I own an AV 60th Strat with them, and have purchased several of the accessory kits aftermarket. They are hard and brittle. They are *not* reissues of the *very* early semi-translucent soft '54 Strat plastics. They are reissues of the second plastic type used with the narrow skirt knobs in 1954...which is polystyrene, just like the "regular" Strat knobs for the next few years, until they switched to ABS in the late '50's.

    5. Polystyrene comes in many forms, from super brittle like a CD jewel case, to soft and aerated foam. You argued with this...then went on to state exactly the same!

    6. You said ABS had not been invented in the '50's. It had been.

    7. You later said, after stating that it had not been invented in the '50's, that ABS was too new for Fender to have used in the '50's. Previously mentioned lab analysis proves otherwise; they were obviously using it as early as '54. As well, it is well known that Strat knobs, covers, etc. became ABS in the late '50's (they are the ones that yellow, while the mid '50's Strat knobs – of both shapes, narrow skirt and "regular" – stay white).

    8. You said Fender never used ABS for single ply white pickguards. While it was certainly not the norm, there are examples of ABS white guards, especially in the .080" single-ply white years. It was sometimes purchased by Fender when white sheet vinyl was unavailable, or ABS got sent as a substitute.

    9. You harp on and on about how all Fender white guards were vinyl...yet you yourself said that early '54 Strats had "ALL POLYSTRYRENE PLASTIC."

    10. You said polystyrene cannot be mixed with other plastics. In fact, polystyrene, by definition, is a wide range of mixes/formulations...which you, in the same paragraph, said so yourself!

    So...with this consistently demonstrated self contradiction and lack of knowledge of basic facts about plastics, what exactly is it that you did at the plastics factories? Swept the floor? Took out the trash?

    And not only do you blow all this garbage out loudly and repeatedly, but you do it with a nasty attitude as well, all while claiming over and over that we are, in fact, the ones acting like you actually are acting. When you act this way, people are going to give you blowback. That's the price you pay for acting that way, so if you are going to act that way, then get used to it.

    You can hoot and holler all you want, and you can try to accuse others of doing the things that you, in fact, are doing. The bottom line is that anyone reasonable and intelligent who is reading this thread can see all they need to see in black and white: You're just plain wrong...about nearly everything...and you're acting like a real jerk. I am, based on the words that you yourself have written, sure that nobody here sees you as the savior of guitars you claim to be, and nobody will miss your bizarre rantings when you retreat into the shadows, as you are promising to do. Please – keep your promise.

    OP, if you make a guard out of that material I linked you to, it will be stiffer than your stock guard. I guarantee you that, having done it myself! That's all I was saying in the first place, till Don jumped in.
     
    Last edited: Dec 22, 2018
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