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Asher Guitars WD Music Products Amplified Parts Mod Kits DIY Nordstarnd Pickups Warmoth.com

Problems with pedals in amp effects loop

Discussion in 'The Stomp Box' started by Hexabuzz, Nov 12, 2017.

  1. Hexabuzz

    Hexabuzz Tele-Afflicted

    Dec 13, 2014
    Northeast PA
    So it seems that depending on how you look at it, it's either a "feature" or a "mistake" that on my Genz Benz Black Pearl 30, the effects loop is designed to be used with rack gear, NOT pedals.

    I recently purchased this amp used, and in reading about it discovered that other owners were complaining about poor sound with pedals in the loop.

    One person even communicated with the amp designer Jeff Genzler directly:

    I tried putting a pedal in the effects loop and it caused a rather drastic change to the sound. It was almost like the sound was kind of like some heavy dose of reverb was being applied to it (even though I turned the reverb all the way down on the amp). I will experiment with the levels on the pedal and try some other pedals as well, but I was wondering if you had some insight on this.

    ***Our Effects Loop is designed for true line level effects----more like outboard effects. We designed this amp to be very pedal friendly in the front input section so we always recommend that you place pedal effects in the input.

    So...

    Any suggestions on what I might be able to do to get pedals to play nicely with this loop? Obviously I could go to rack gear, or move everything in front of the input, but I'd really rather stick with how I'm doing things, with delay and reverb in an amp's effects loop.
     

  2. Dacious

    Dacious Friend of Leo's

    Mar 16, 2003
    Godzone
    Seems the man himself answered your question. Put them in front.
     

  3. Hexabuzz

    Hexabuzz Tele-Afflicted

    Dec 13, 2014
    Northeast PA
    Did you read my post carefully?

    I don't want reverb and delay out front - Nor do most players using them.
     

  4. Dacious

    Dacious Friend of Leo's

    Mar 16, 2003
    Godzone
    Yes I read your post. If you're determined you absolutely positively can't stand reverb and delay out front you will have to find stomp devices which either sound good in the loop, rack effects (which there's no guarantee until you try them they will sound better) or get another amp.

    I use a Line6 M13 stomp modeller straight in front of my Marshall. Which has a tube-buffered effects loop. I don't think there's an enormous audible difference listening in a quiet room. Live, you'd never tell the difference.

    Your call. It's their amp and they've told you an answer you may not like but it's likely the only answer you're going to get.

    Edit: are you unhappy with the sound you get with your effects in the loop?
     

  5. hongaku

    hongaku Tele-Afflicted

    Dec 14, 2011
    Oakton, VA, USA
    Maybe something like this?

    https://www.sweetwater.com/store/de...VEAI5MHU7SkT_y2mXDYk_Ngx_plVEcK4aAsUkEALw_wcB

    If I understand correctly, the send is putting out line level and the return expects a line level back, but generally speaking effects pedals receive and output instrument level. You need to convert the effects loop send to instrument level before the pedals, but then convert the instrument level signal back to line level before hitting the effects loop return.
     

  6. Hexabuzz

    Hexabuzz Tele-Afflicted

    Dec 13, 2014
    Northeast PA
    EXACTLY!

    Thanks!

    That looks perfect!
     
    hongaku likes this.

  7. Hexabuzz

    Hexabuzz Tele-Afflicted

    Dec 13, 2014
    Northeast PA
    Personally, I don't like delay or reverb out in front, but if it works for you, and the sounds you like, then that's cool.

    The signal mismatch makes pedals in the loop just sound dead and weak - Much different than what I get with my Blues Cubes and Boogie.
     

  8. Hexabuzz

    Hexabuzz Tele-Afflicted

    Dec 13, 2014
    Northeast PA
    And...

    Just scored a used one of these in like new condition at Music-Go-Round for...

    $30...

    Thanks again!
     
    hongaku likes this.

  9. hongaku

    hongaku Tele-Afflicted

    Dec 14, 2011
    Oakton, VA, USA
    No problem ;)
     
    Hexabuzz likes this.

  10. Hexabuzz

    Hexabuzz Tele-Afflicted

    Dec 13, 2014
    Northeast PA
    Ok, now I'm confused...

    Got the LL2, and before I patch everything together, do I have the signal order correct?

    Effects loop Send > CH1 -10dBv > CH1 +4dBv > Pedal input > Pedal output > CH2 +4dBv > CH1 -10dBv > Effects loop Return

    ll2.jpg
     

  11. hongaku

    hongaku Tele-Afflicted

    Dec 14, 2011
    Oakton, VA, USA
    I think you need the amp send going into the ch1 +4db then the ch1 -10db to effects, then effects to ch2 -10db and finally ch2 +4db to amp return. If it’s “true line level” then it’s putting out +4db, not -10db.
     

  12. Hexabuzz

    Hexabuzz Tele-Afflicted

    Dec 13, 2014
    Northeast PA
    But don't i have to get the -10 send into the +4 pedal, then back down to the -10 loop?

    If the LL2 weren't needed, it would be Send > Pedal > Return, all at +4.

    The problem is Send (-10) > Pedal (+4) > Return.

    So my diagram is:

    Send (-10) > CH1 -10dBv > CH1 +4dBv > Pedal in/out (+4) > CH2 +4dBv > CH1 -10dBv > Effects loop Return

    Or am I not seeing something here in the path?
     

  13. hongaku

    hongaku Tele-Afflicted

    Dec 14, 2011
    Oakton, VA, USA
    Yeah, I think you’ve got your dBs backwards. The amp is putting out +4dB from the send. The pedals are expecting/putting out -10dB, NOT +4dB. The amp is then expecting a +4dB signal upon return. Is this more clear?

    Send>Ch1 +4dB>Ch1 -10dB>effect(s) input>effect output>Ch2 -10dB>Ch2 +4dB>Return
     
    Last edited: Nov 22, 2017 at 12:27 PM

  14. Hexabuzz

    Hexabuzz Tele-Afflicted

    Dec 13, 2014
    Northeast PA
    Ok, so +4dBu is actually LESS than -10dBV?

    If that's the case, then I understand what you're saying, and that I've got it backwards.

    Electricity and I are not very good friends...

    So what I really want is:

    Effects loop Send > CH1 +4dBu > CH1 -10dBV > Pedal input > Pedal output > CH2 -10dBV > CH1 +4dBu > Effects loop Return
     

  15. hongaku

    hongaku Tele-Afflicted

    Dec 14, 2011
    Oakton, VA, USA
    +4dB is much hotter of a signal than -10dB. Commercial “line level” is -10dB and would be what you get from your phone audio out or something. Professional grade audio equipment like your amp is putting out a much hotter true line level signal of +4dB. -10dB is actually essentially instrument level.
     

  16. Hexabuzz

    Hexabuzz Tele-Afflicted

    Dec 13, 2014
    Northeast PA
    Ok, it took a while but I'm finally getting this. Thank you for your patience!
     

  17. FenderLover

    FenderLover Friend of Leo's

    Jun 11, 2009
    Minnesota
    Yup, it's about 11.8dB difference in level. Many amp sends that have a passive FX Loop are way too hot. more than +4dBV.
     

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