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Pinholes - any way to save this?

Discussion in 'Finely Finished' started by slick4772, Sep 20, 2017.

  1. slick4772

    slick4772 Tele-Meister

    149
    Jan 21, 2013
    Pittsburgh
    Hi - I sprayed this guitar with Sherwin Williams LOVOC lacquer using a Fuji HVLP spray system. I've read a number of posts about pinholes, and I'm concerned that I'll have to start over - which is ok, but I wanted to see if this issue might be fixed by some other means (more sanding/leveling).

    The body is heavy northern ash. I sprayed a maple neck at the same time as the body and this issue is not present.

    I can see that the finish is still pretty thick so, perhaps additional leveling is necessary. I thought I was done and put some of the 3M Finesse on the body to check my progress and saw all the pinholes. I wanted some expert opinions before I do something rash.

    Pinholes.JPG .
     

  2. Silverface

    Silverface Poster Extraordinaire Ad Free Member

    Age:
    65
    Mar 2, 2003
    Lawndale CA
    Use blush eliminator. It's primarily solvent with just a tiny bit of resin, so it has to be fogged-on VERY lightly. You may get a few runs that need to be sanded out but it *may* flow the old finish out.

    But read the notes below!

    Did you seal the wood first with lacquer sanding sealer and clean it thoroughly before that? How did you apply the coating? Was it done in 3 light passes per coat?

    Pinholes normally result from 1) trapped air, 2) trapped contaminants, or 3) trapped solvent...and with all 3 some heat that brings something through the film.

    1) Is caused by not sealing the woods.

    2) Is pretty obvious - oils, cleaning compounds, moisture etc etc. It's always a good idea to test for moisture content with an electronic meter (about $20 at Harbor Freight) . If it's over 11% it's not a good idea to coat.

    3) is cause by thick application - and if so it's good it happened now. If it happens months or years later blisters appear - or the system peels.

    If it *is* too thick sand it way down before using blush eliminator. don't make it harder than it should be - the thick coating has to be reduced to completely eliminate solvents. If it wasn't sealed it still needs to be taken down and coated with *very* light passes and at least a day or 2 between coats.

    If it's contamination - strip it. No other solution. Then clean it, sand thoroughly, clean again and seal it - and watch.
     
    Mr Green Genes likes this.

  3. slick4772

    slick4772 Tele-Meister

    149
    Jan 21, 2013
    Pittsburgh
    Thank you kind sir. I will try more leveling first, then use the blush eliminator.
     

  4. Flakey

    Flakey Friend of Leo's

    If I may add if this doesn't work and you you need to sand out and recoat just for safety sake add few drops of Fish Eye eliminator/ flow out to your next coats of clear.
     

  5. Vizcaster

    Vizcaster Friend of Leo's

    Sep 15, 2007
    Glen Head, NY
    When you said "pinholes" i expected to see large bubbles from solvent-pop, but frankly that picture shows a really nice looking finish. Most guitars that have been around long enough for the lacquer to shrink back will start to show those very slight grain indentations.

    I'm not sure what's compatible with SW lacquer, but does anybody have experience using a clear grain filler in between coats if this arises? I've done it with AquaCoat in between coats of water based lacquer and it helped to get a level gloss in the final coats.
     

  6. Silverface

    Silverface Poster Extraordinaire Ad Free Member

    Age:
    65
    Mar 2, 2003
    Lawndale CA
    I would only use it if there is some kind of contamination. It's an unneeded component otherwise. OTOH if you are talking about a flow agent that's another story - but not recommended except when spraying *has* to be done in the wrong weather conditions.

    It's best for less-experienced finisher to not use additives - the mix ratios are to critical.

    ???

    There are pinholes and serious flow problems over the entire thing and the gloss is inconsistent in hundreds of low areas. Are you looking at the clear finish image posted above?
     

  7. Flakey

    Flakey Friend of Leo's

    I disagree.
     

  8. bullfrogblues

    bullfrogblues Friend of Leo's

    Jun 5, 2011
    Southeast Florida
    IMO, looks like you didn't pore fill properly.
    And it's something that happens to me on a regular basis!
    You think you're done, then clearcoat and see the unfilled pores.
     

  9. slick4772

    slick4772 Tele-Meister

    149
    Jan 21, 2013
    Pittsburgh
    I don't think it is a pore filling issue - it is either that the finish was applied too thick (and I'm sure it was) or - a bigger problem - the wood is still wet and that's moisture. I used grain filler, applied initial clear coats, sanded it down to a satin finish, then applied more clear. I'm going to try sanding more and then use the blush remover, but if that doesn't work, I'll start over, making sure I use vinyl sealer first.
     

  10. Silverface

    Silverface Poster Extraordinaire Ad Free Member

    Age:
    65
    Mar 2, 2003
    Lawndale CA
    It appears everyone else commenting does not agree with you.

    It's not an "opinion". Factually the finish did not lay out and flow smoothly. If you truly disagree I suggest you look at examples of good finishes on the web. *None* look like that.
     

  11. Flakey

    Flakey Friend of Leo's


    No, I disagree about not adding a drop of fish eye/ flow out as a preventative measure after he sands out the pin holes. The wood has some type of contamination and resanding it out down to the wood and rewashing it will not necessarily prevent it from happening again. Therefore adding a drop of fish eye/ flow out should be done. There could be oil, silicone or whatever else that sanding will not remove it. Its not that perilous to add one drop to his clear. Reread in the thread where I placed my disagreement :rolleyes:

    M716-1601.jpg
     

  12. Dacious

    Dacious Friend of Leo's

    Mar 16, 2003
    Godzone
    With a lot of open pore wood you need a pore-filler as well as a grain sealer. The sealer fixes the fibres that stand up. That looks to.me like orange peel from surface soak. Fender used a two stage process on ash. It's part of the reason they moved to alder.

    This process created a lot more production work. Not only was the yellow sprayed, but the Ash body also had to be "pore filled" (sealed) before spraying the Sunburst. Since Ash is an "open-pore" wood (unlike Alder), not using a pore-filler sealer leaves a final finish with considerable "sink". This occurs when the finish dries and sinks into the open pores of the wood, leaving a finish with many dimples. To stop this, a pore filler consisting of fine sand mixed in a thick solution is brushed (or sprayed) on the bare wood. After some dry time, the excess pore filler can be scraped or wiped off leaving material in the pores of the wood, thus filling them. After some more dry time, the body can be sealed with lacquer and the color finish can be applied. This process was always used by Fender on Ash bodies from 1950 to the present
    .

    From here http://www.guitarhq.com/fenderc.html
     
    bullfrogblues likes this.

  13. dkmw

    dkmw Tele-Afflicted Ad Free + Supporter

    Age:
    62
    Mar 30, 2016
    Florida USA
    Please make sure you remove every trace of the 3M polish you applied before doing any more lacquer spraying! If it got down into the low spots and you don't get it out you'll just have more issues.
     

  14. Silverface

    Silverface Poster Extraordinaire Ad Free Member

    Age:
    65
    Mar 2, 2003
    Lawndale CA
    Ok, I understand what you mean - But the problem is that fisheye eliminator will not solve the mil thickness issues and flow problems. Those have to be corrected via spray technique.

    Not recommended. Sealers have large-particle clear pigments designed to fill wood - not inconsistent spray patterns. It's the wrong material. If it's lacquer it will melt into the previous coat like anything else, so its effectiveness may be deceiving.

    But if it's applied properly - in 3 light passes per coat - the filler pigment will not have fully to penetrate, will sit on top (microscopically - you have no way of seeing it) and may compromise flow between lacquer coats ("intercoat adhesion"). It might work if you get lucky but in reality makes things worse. Not recommended.
     

  15. Flakey

    Flakey Friend of Leo's


    Agreed! If your technique is bad nothing in the gun is going to help with the problem !
     

  16. slick4772

    slick4772 Tele-Meister

    149
    Jan 21, 2013
    Pittsburgh
    Thank you for all of the discussion - I will likely end up stripping the finish if I can't get it to look right after additional sanding.

    So - would you recommend using something in addition to the Sherwin Williams vinyl sealer prior to spraying the lacquer? I used Wonderfil on the open pores prior to spraying initially - so would you use something like colorless oil based grain filler over the entire body before the vinyl sealer?

    How much of the sealer should I use - 3 coats (3 light passes per coat)?

    Also - when doing the lacquer - using an HVLP spray gun vs rattle cans, a lot more material comes out - is that a 3 coat exercise as well or are more coats necessary?

    Thanks for the help.
     

  17. Silverface

    Silverface Poster Extraordinaire Ad Free Member

    Age:
    65
    Mar 2, 2003
    Lawndale CA
    Sanding will not solve the problem if it's contamination - you may even it out temporarily but the minute you spray more material you'll end up with the same thing all over again.

    Fogging blush eliminator over it could solve it quickly and easily - if it doesn't then you do need to strip. But IMO sanding is wasted effort.
     

  18. slick4772

    slick4772 Tele-Meister

    149
    Jan 21, 2013
    Pittsburgh
    The blush remover definitely helped. I had to use more than just a “fogging”. I sprayed a few passes over the entire body and I could see finish improving. I haven’t looked at the body after letting it sit overnight. So, if the blush remover is working, would you recommend continuing to use it until those pinholes are gone?
     

  19. Vizcaster

    Vizcaster Friend of Leo's

    Sep 15, 2007
    Glen Head, NY
    Next time you're at the paint store, ask for a wet film thickness gauge (one might have come with your HVLP kit). It's a little card with graduated notches along the edges. You put the edge against the freshly sprayed surface and count the little indentations that it leaves in the finish, telling you how thick the wet coating is. Then you use that information starting with the recommendations for that particular finish material, and then adjust according to what works for you. You want it wet enough not to have orange peel, and not so wet that it will run or sag.
     

  20. Silverface

    Silverface Poster Extraordinaire Ad Free Member

    Age:
    65
    Mar 2, 2003
    Lawndale CA
    FWIW not a retail-type paint or hardware store, but a professional paint store that is contractor oriented.

    Even then they may have to order one. Most do not keep them in stock as contractors who use inspection tools (mainly industrial and large commercial outfits) usually order them directly.
     

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