One Diminished 7th chord can become four Dominant 7th chords

Discussion in 'Tab, Tips, Theory and Technique' started by ASATKat, Apr 11, 2019.

  1. ASATKat

    ASATKat Tele-Afflicted

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    This is an awesome concept that I believe I learned from Pat Martino back in the 80s. Actually Guitar Player had instruction columns from a number of people on this.

    It's a very simple idea, start with a diminished 7th chord.

    -2 F#
    -1 C
    -2 A
    -1 Eb
    -
    -

    Lower any single note in this chord and you get 4 Dominant 7th chords,

    . . . . D7
    -2-----2
    -1-----1
    -2-----2
    -1-----0 <
    -
    -

    . . . Ab7
    -2-----2
    -1-----1
    -2-----1 <
    -1-----1
    '
    -

    . . . .B7
    -2-----2
    -1-----0 <
    -2-----2
    -1-----1
    -
    -

    . . . .F7
    -2-----1 <
    -1-----1
    -2-----2
    -1-----1
    -
    -

    Since the very same diminished chord can be moved up the neck by minor 3rds (3 frets) the same four Dominant can be made again. Then do it again another minor 3rd,

    These chords have a lot of names, that could be a bit confusing, don't let it stop you from the dominant "trick", that's more an ear thing.

    This is a bare bones explanation, hoping to open the topic up to broader diminished talk.
    (broader/diminished lol)

    F#°. . . .A°. . . . .C°. . . Eb7° or,
    A7°. . . A7°. . . .A7°. . . A7°
    C7°. . . C7°. . . .C7°. . . C7°
    Eb7°. . Eb7°. . .Eb7°. . Eb7°

    -2----------5----------8--------11
    -1----------4----------7--------10
    -2----------5----------8--------11
    -1----------4----------7--------10
    -
    -
     
  2. TeleBluesMan

    TeleBluesMan TDPRI Member

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  3. SnidelyWhiplash

    SnidelyWhiplash Friend of Leo's

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    I have an older issue of Guitar Player that explains this concept. They call
    it " diminished transformers ". Very excellent way to learn Dom7 grips &
    it can help open up the fretboard in new ways. I need all the help i can get! :confused:
     
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  4. LKB3rd

    LKB3rd Friend of Leo's

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    The dominant 7th chords are dom7b9, leaving the root unplayed. So the note of the diminished chord is the flat9, and you go down one fret/half step to the root.
     
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  5. ASATKat

    ASATKat Tele-Afflicted

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    Yes, it's not magic, it's just a handy way to learn a bumch of dom7th "grips".

    The great Pat Martino was at the top of the jazz scene in the 70s when it was discovered an aneurysm deep in his brain. In order to completely "fix" him they had to cut his Corpus Callousum. This split his brain in two. Most people with such a proceedure are rendered severely disabled for life. Martino somehow found a way back into our world and has once again risen to the top percentile of great players. His story is absolutely fascinating.

    Martino wrote a book about the essential guitar things he lost, aside from learning how to talk and walk all over. The rare book is called The Nature Of Music. It's sort of a way of relating music to other things in a crossreferencing sort of way, piano is based addition, you go up and you go down,,, where the guitar is based in multiplication, you can play the same chord in multiple spots all over the neck.
    Much like 3d chess.

    He used the symmetrical diminished 7th to start with. He also did the same thing with the symmetrical augmented triad.

    So, we have 4 dim7th chords on a set of 4 strings, there are 3 sets of 4 strings, 1234, 2345, and 3456.This allows you to play the same dim7 on 3 sets of strings. 3x4 = 12. 12 ways to play the same four dim7th chords.

    string set #1,
    -2----5----8----11
    -1----4----7----10
    -2----5----8----11
    -1----4----7----10
    -
    -

    string set #2,
    -
    -4----7----10----13
    -2----5------8----11
    -4----7----10----13
    -3----6------9----12
    -

    string set #3
    -
    -
    -2----5----8----11
    -1----4----7----10
    -3----6----9----12
    -2----5----8----11

    Lower any note and these 12 dim7th chord "shapes" turn into 12 dom7th chord "shapes".

    Here is a page from his book describing the dim7th to dom7th as well as the Augmented chord.

    https://images.app.goo.gl/1FLdto9JCYfrQ1749

    This is an amazing documentary on what happened to him, riviting,



    This shows the path he takes for his brain to communicate with each half.

     
  6. LKB3rd

    LKB3rd Friend of Leo's

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    You can use it in your soloing too.
    If you have a dom7b9 chord you can go a half step up from the root and play diminished arpeggio/repeating minor thirds, or diminished scale (whole step/half step repeating version). You can experiment and you can get away with "flat nining" many/most dom7 chord by soloing over these chords.
     
  7. Mark the Moose

    Mark the Moose Tele-Meister

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    The fancy name is “enharmonc renterpretation”. You respell one or more of the notes as it’s enharmonic equivalentand resolve it as such. It opens up some interesting modulations up or down a minor 3rd or a tritone. Dates back as far as 200 years.
     
  8. Musekatcher

    Musekatcher Tele-Afflicted

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    I don't have much to add to the diminished discussion, but I've found sub-dom7s used in old music, pre-WWII, with the 7 on the bottom, that were later mutated to dim7s by modern players. I've even seen academic studies on these dim7s associated with the original sources, incorrectly of course. Fun stuff though.
     
  9. ASATKat

    ASATKat Tele-Afflicted

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    I never heard of of the term enharmonic reinterpretation. It sounds like a broad term that could include many reharmonisations.

    Must investigate more =)
     
  10. Mark the Moose

    Mark the Moose Tele-Meister

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    Ha! “Reinterpretation” is correct. Typing on your phone before you get your coffee is incorrect.
     
  11. ASATKat

    ASATKat Tele-Afflicted

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    I still haven't heard of reinterpretation. From what I read it sounds like a classical term for setting up a progression for a key change. But that is not what the op is about, it's just about a clever way to organize dom7th chords. They can be used in any way you like.

    Also, changing keys within a tune in modern jazz terms is simply called modulation, to modulate into another key or chord. And it is different than reharmonization.

    modulation example,
    Cm7 F7 Bbmaj7 | Bbm7 Eb7 Abmaj7 |
    Abm7 Db7 Gbmaj7 etc...

    Reharmonization example,
    Cmaj7 Am7 Dm7 G7 Cmaj7
    becomes one of many choices, like,,,

    Em7 Eb9 Abmaj7 Db7 Cmaj7
    -----------------------------------------
    --8------8--------8--------8-------8
    --7------9--------8-------10------9
    --9-----11------10-------9-------9
    --7---------------11------------------
    ---------11-----------------9-------8
     
    Last edited: Apr 19, 2019
  12. Mark the Moose

    Mark the Moose Tele-Meister

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    Maybe this is helpful: an example of enharmonic reinterpretation is when you exchange C#dim7 for Edim7. They use the same four sounds but are spelled differently according to their respective keys. If I were resolving to a D minor, I would write C#-E-G-Bb. If I were resolving to F minor I would write E-G-Bb-Db. Notice how the C# is respelled as a Db. This sets up an interesting possibility to modulate by a minor third.

    This technique dates back to the early Romantic era, but gets used in Jazz, film music, even some non-mainstream rock.
     
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  13. klasaine

    klasaine Poster Extraordinaire

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    This is the 'meta' aspect of what Pat Martino is getting at. John Coltrane too. The "Coltrane Matrix" is essentially that M3/m3 intervallic thing. I've never heard the term enharmonic reinterpretation either but I understood it immediately - and I dig it.

    *When I see a diminished chord written I go with the assumption that it's really just a dom b9 chord. Sometimes they are just diminished. Like when it's off the V chord. | Dm7 G7 | Gº G7 | C | In this case we're just delaying the resolution to I. Or, maybe that's an F#7b9 and we're using the 1/2 embellishment technique ;). See where I'm going.
     
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