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Asher Guitars WD Music Products Amplified Parts Mod Kits DIY Nordstarnd Pickups Warmoth.com
Asher Guitars WD Music Products Amplified Parts Mod Kits DIY Nordstarnd Pickups Warmoth.com

Neck finish

Discussion in 'Finely Finished' started by bfloyd6969, Oct 18, 2011.

  1. RnB

    RnB Tele-Meister

    Age:
    70
    357
    Oct 26, 2004
    SF Bay Area

    Forget you & the horse you rode in on...

    I didn't say I was rubbing it in my eyes, snorting it, or smearing it on my sandwiches. Of course anything w/ petrolleum distillates can cause harm...Duh. I'm not telling anyone to stand in path of noxious fumes or how to evade wearing protection for their own safety. You made that inference! You need to take your thoughtful redeeming remarks & esteemed knowledge of health over to the Finishing Forum & let everyone their know how dangerous finishing a guitar neck w/ Tru-Oil using your index finger can be. You sound like a 21st Century HazMat hero. GMAB :rolleyes:

    ...As for, not caring about my health. You don't even know me. I've made it this far after being a paint contractor for 45 years & I'm still alive & well. Always wore necessary protection...when needed! Osha approved at that. And, just in case you haven't heard of late ~ the whole world is toxic!

    fwiw: I am sorry that your body/skin is particularly sensitve to certain elements that cause you to have lesions...really! I can see why you jumped on 'the safety factor'. I can't tell how many times I woke up the next morning w/ a major headache after having my head/body stuffed in new cabinets, spraying nitro all day...every day & that's w/ wearing the best mask available (I grew up w/ the owners of Binks Spray equipment here in the Bay Area).

    LOL! That's rare. Right on... ;)
     

  2. Colt W. Knight

    Colt W. Knight Doctor of Teleocity Ad Free Member

    Jan 21, 2007
    Tucson, AZ
    [​IMG]
     

  3. Old Cane

    Old Cane Poster Extraordinaire

    Sep 7, 2007
    Murfreesboro, TN
    I know what S&S is. I use it on bodies. I just finish out maple. I don't grain fill it either. It's maple. A few coats of S&S is like 80 coats of clear. I just don't put that much on mine. They are sealed when I get them. I don't get the kind that grow on trees.
     

  4. Silverface

    Silverface Poster Extraordinaire Ad Free Member

    Age:
    65
    Mar 2, 2003
    Lawndale CA
    Colt - thanks for the info regarding the bottle directions. Again, as the beach area of L.A. is not exactly a hotbed of firearms/hunting activity I've never even seen the stuff (I've checked all the local sporting goods shops but had no luck).

    Interestingly, I checked their website as noted and found the quoted MSDS safety directives; I also looked at the application data sheet and sure enough - the "bare fingers" method is *still* there. That's something they will want to change quickly (but it's typical - MSDS are prepared by chemists, and product data by marketing). There's no doubt that if they use common sense (and OSHA guidelines) the "bare fingers" notation will be history.

    Rn'B - You made a whole set of statements - not just the "bare fingers" comment - that inferred a lack of use of proper PPE ("masks" and "respirators" are not the same thing).

    Quit the exaggerations - you know exactly what was being addressed.

    45 years as a painting contractor and having headaches from fumes tells me you didn't know how to operate your equipment - there's NO way you should get fume exposure with the right cartridges and prefilters combined with a manufacturer's-coordinated changeout schedule, which is what professional contractors use. They don't wait for smell - there's a specific time limit for cartridges with most common coatings - any painter who has had legally-required fit testing and respirator training knows that.

    And while I appreciate you comments regarding sensitivity to solvents, it's not a big emotional thing to me - just an example of what can happen. It's actually VERY common (and I have no issues when I use the right PPE).

    Here's your statement again:

    "Breathing lacquer fumes and dust" and saying Tru Oil is "not as toxic" clearly states you're condoning or have a history of breathing one or the other!

    "Wear a mask & if you can...do it outside." - "Mask" I already addressed as useless (call 3M and ask how their dust masks protect against lacquer...or varnish, in the case of Tru Oil...fumes. The answer will be zero).

    Coating outside is a great idea to help prevent fire hazards - but wind shifts can blow coatings and/or fumes right in your face.

    Interestingly, I find most of the safety problems in coatings are with applicators who have been doing it a long time. They think they know what's safe because they're not dead yet. Younger folks are trained according to current regulations and stand a better chance of avoiding brain damage, lung damage...or liver transplants, which my foreman had last year (NOT due to current work habits, but instead those we had to break him of).

    And here's a typical statement - I must have heard similar versions of this one a hundred times in safety seminars done for PDCA:

    Really? When did an Osha inspector look at your PPE or spray rig? (hint - never. They only "approve" things when called out on a project due to a potential violation...an accident...or a death). So if they "approved" what you were using you must have had:
    1. Your latest physician's statement qualifying you for respirator use.
    2. Your written cartridge log/changeout schedule and date of last fit test
    3. MSDS for all product on site in a logged book on the jobsite.
    4. #1 and #2 for ALL employees if you are/were the license holder.

    All are required by OSHA for licensed painting contractors/employee-applicators.

    And can you define "when needed"? Another hint - much of the "need" depends on the product MSDS - so with your finger-application of Birchwood Casey's Tru Oil you just contradicted yourself.

    Look, if you want to use unsafe practices, be my guest. Just don't recommend them to others. There are a LOT of very inexperienced people on this forum who need all the safety advice they can get - the last thing they need is a lackadaisical attitude from someone who tries to appear he knows his stuff but doesn't.
     
    Last edited: Oct 21, 2011

  5. Shepherd

    Shepherd Friend of Leo's

    Jan 17, 2008
    Maple Ridge, Canada
    Meh, and tomorrow you get hit by a bus crossing the street. Heck, just breathing the air outside is enough to kill you nowadays.
     

  6. FuzzFace

    FuzzFace TDPRI Member

    39
    Jul 3, 2008
    NYC
    I'm curious, does tru-oil wear down more quickly than a typical lacquer finish?

    Is a a Tru-oil finish more or less durable? Thanks!
     

  7. Old Cane

    Old Cane Poster Extraordinaire

    Sep 7, 2007
    Murfreesboro, TN
    I can say I can't tel; that mine has worn at all. I don't play full-time any more but still play a good bit.

    As for SF, like I always say, before the interenet we didn't know everything we did was wrong. Glad we have you to clear this up. My wife is out of town this week so I was a little lost in that I had nobody to tell me that everything will kill me. I guess I'm not really here.

    2. HAZARDS IDENTIFICATION
    EMERGENCY OVERVIEW: DANGER ! Harmful or fatal if swallowed. Combustible liquid and vapor.

    I've seen that same warning at starbucks.

    When I look at all the warnings on stuff these I'm amazed how the human race has survived. I guess being from LA you may have never seen a gun but did you know there are warning stamped into the barrel of every gun basically telling you it's a gun because of people that ar afraid of everything? Can you imagine this being done in 1875? I can't. I'm sure somebody got pregant once after handling a firearm so that'll probably be incorporated into the warning soon.

    So, in other words, use your fingers. But if you have open wounds have a little sense.
     

  8. flyingbanana

    flyingbanana Poster Extraordinaire

    Well said young man....well said.
     

  9. TinTurtle

    TinTurtle TDPRI Member

    21
    Oct 24, 2011
    Chicago/Beijing
    I brought home some Tru-Oil and was going to go that route on my neck, but after seeing some pictures of how the fingerboard dirties up that has really put me off. I know some guys are into that but its really not my thing.

    I am thinking boiled linseed oil, sit for a week or two and then Vinyl Sealer followed by String Instrument laquer. This will be on a birdseye maple Warmoth neck, modern version.
     

  10. supersam

    supersam Tele-Meister

    Age:
    36
    438
    Apr 24, 2010
    Lansing, MI
    Mine has dirtied up in a sweet way (not grimey though...I hate a grimey fingerboard), but I only did maybe 3 coats on it and it's wearing away. And I've gigged it hard for the last 2-3 years. If you build up the coats though, maybe 12 - 15 coats, or more, it should be just as durable as lacquer. But it's definitely a preference. Lacquer is a mighty fine finish too, once it cures and the stickiness goes away. My Tru-Oil neck was sticky in the beginning too, but was super smooth in a week or two :)
     

  11. flyingbanana

    flyingbanana Poster Extraordinaire

    I'm not sure how he applied Tru Oil to his neck, but I've never seen Tru Oil get dirty like that. I have it on my favorite neck and it get's played mean...all the time. It is as glossy and clear as the day I applied it. It doesn't even really scratch....that's how hard of a finish it is. Which brings me to the reason of why gun owners use it for their gun stocks....waterproof and durable outdoors.
     

  12. supersam

    supersam Tele-Meister

    Age:
    36
    438
    Apr 24, 2010
    Lansing, MI
    I've never seen one age like mine either, but it really has just almost completely worn off on the fingerboard from playing. Like I said, I applied 3 really thin coats, if that. I used more on the headstock to help protect the decal, and more on the back of the neck, but I'm not a fan of glossy fingerboards, so I kept it thin. The back of the neck, where I applied maybe 6 coats, seems to be wearing down, but it's not down to the wood yet. Still looks new.

    Here's a closeup of the fingerboard I took when I broke a string. The dirt and finger oils are definitely working into the wood. I clean the fret board off with a rag on a regular basis to keep the grime off, but the wood seems to be soaking up the finger oils for sure. Just apply it heavier if you don't want it to wear like this.
     

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  13. TinTurtle

    TinTurtle TDPRI Member

    21
    Oct 24, 2011
    Chicago/Beijing
    I have a Washburn bass with a natural wood neck and I like it. I may try applying it to just the back and shooting nitro on the board.
     

  14. Colt W. Knight

    Colt W. Knight Doctor of Teleocity Ad Free Member

    Jan 21, 2007
    Tucson, AZ
    A properly applied Tru Oil finish is far more durable than lacquer, and will provides years of wear free service.

    If you want a high gloss lacquer looking finish, you are going to be in the neighborhood of 12 coats of Tru Oil or more.
     

  15. FuzzFace

    FuzzFace TDPRI Member

    39
    Jul 3, 2008
    NYC
    Cool. What if I just want a satin finish?
     

  16. Silverface

    Silverface Poster Extraordinaire Ad Free Member

    Age:
    65
    Mar 2, 2003
    Lawndale CA
    Fuzzface - Rub it down with white 3m-type pads (synthetic steel wool substitute equivalent to 0000 steel wool - without the metal slivers that lock onto magnets and destroy pots).

    Old Cane and Flyingbanana - I know what you're saying. But the problem is there are SO many "I want to refinish my guitar, so I bought some lacquer thinner and started stripping it in my garage - what do I do to get the stubborn stuff off?" and other "total newbie" type posts on this forum that it's not out of line to post safety information. Those posters have NO idea what they are doing from either a technical or safety standpoint. And application advice that violates common safety practices and the manufacturer's recommendations is either made in haste, ignorance or stupidly.

    Most people don't even look at an MSDS - some who do scoff at the warnings, but seeing the results of long-term ignorance (chronic health problems from using no...or wrong...safety gear) or short term mistakes (deaths from asphyxiation, flash-fires from solvent fumes and a pilot light) and being a professional I take this stuff seriously - I don't want to see anyone hurt and I HAVE seen people killed.

    I'm not posting warnings equivalent to "you can get hit by a bus crossing the street" - the stuff I'm posting is reality, and problems that can cause chronic or acute conditions.

    Some can go for YEARS without a single problem...they think. But solvent inhalation, for example, is cumulative and years of spraying lacquer with a dust mask - or ill fitting but correct respirator - commonly causes lung problems such as emphysema. Polyurethanes OTOH contain isocyanates, another cumulative material. With many people years of minor exposure on jobsites (just from incidental overspray/fumes) build to an allergic-type reaction, with eventual skin irritation during even minor exposure (about half of the commercial/industrial painters in the Union that have been on the job for 15+ years have developed isocyanate sensitivity, primarily from a few years of early unprotected exposure).

    The biggest issue - most newbies have NO idea how volatile and dangerous lacquers are. The most common problems are:

    Use of dust masks or cloth as "respiratory protection", neither of which do a thing (or using NO protection).

    Insufficient ventilation - a pilot light in an 80' x 50' x 20' room with average ventilation can cause a flash fire with one person spraying lacquer at the other end for several hours. It takes HUGE amounts of air movement (with explosion proof fans) to solve that one.

    No eye protection (a splash of lacquer or thinner means an immediate E.R. visit).

    No skin protection (solvents are poisons easily absorbed into the skin, and as mentioned before, cumulative. Go without gloves long enough and you risk long-term health issues that no one may even relate to the specific exposure).

    Lack of understanding of ignition sources - lacquer and several other solvent-type product fumes can be ignited by motors in fans and compressors (which is why all solvent coatings operation exhaust fans have explosion-proof motors and compressors are never in the same room as spray operations), pilot lights, cordless tools - even a dropped metal screwdriver on concrete.

    Oxygen displacement - solvent fumes are heavier than air. A common misconception is that it's best to contain overspray and fumes (so the smell doesn't get into the house; jerry-rigged spray booths (plastic taped up with the person spraying fully enclosed in the "booth") are set up and fumes settle at ground level, slowly rising and pushing oxygen up and out any small leaks - the lighter breathable air is removed and the solvent-heavy air contained. Sit down or kneel for even 20-30 seconds and you can pass out - and if no one notices, you're dead within minutes. This is one of the most common causes of death in the painting trade.

    I agree that what you decide you want to do is your choice - but what you tell others to do is another story. You suggest a hazardous procedure to someone else and get called on it you have no right to complain. Those who "pile on" as their first involvement in a particular thread are not only out of line but do a fine job of proving their ignorance - and total lack of common sense.
     

  17. Colt W. Knight

    Colt W. Knight Doctor of Teleocity Ad Free Member

    Jan 21, 2007
    Tucson, AZ
    The traditional application of tru oil is to simply rub on a thin coat. Allow to dry, knock down any imperfections you have with 0000 steel wool. Repeat until you are happy. Since you are a satin finish, I would follow the above protocol, and just stop when you are happy after buffing with the steel wool or synthetic equivalent.

    One of the reasons it takes so many coats of Tru Oil to get a very high gloss finish, is because you have to have a very level finish to get a wet glass look. With a satin finish, you can have orange peel, low spots, etc. etc. and never see it or feel it. But on a high gloss finish, they will stand out like fox in a hen house.
     

  18. TeleTim911

    TeleTim911 Friend of Leo's

    Sep 28, 2009
    Calera, Alabama
    Sorry to come into this one so late, was doing a little research on neck finishes. I have two questions:

    1) Which is harder, Tung or Tru?

    2) Can you finish before you fret?
     

  19. Shepherd

    Shepherd Friend of Leo's

    Jan 17, 2008
    Maple Ridge, Canada
    Tru oil is harder.
    You can finish it before or after. Each has it's drawbacks. You have to try it to see which method works better for you.
     

  20. TNO

    TNO Friend of Leo's

    Apr 25, 2003
    NC-USA
    For a quick, easy vintage look that's totally non-toxic nothing beats fresh-mixed garnet shellac in Everclear sprayed through a Preval. Start-to-finish it can be done in a day and a half.
     

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