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Leslie 16/18/Vibratone Speaker Load

Discussion in 'Amp Central Station' started by javabirds, Sep 12, 2011.

  1. javabirds

    javabirds Tele-Holic

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    I just picked up a Leslie 16 over the weekend. It has the cable/foot-switch and crossover. My question is:

    What speaker load will it have through the crossover on my amp?

    From what I can tell it is supposed to send the mids to the Leslie and the highs and lows to the amp speaker cab through the in/out connections on the wiring harness at the same time. Currently the female 1/4 inch has been removed so only the input signal is going to the Leslie. The manual never discusses speaker load. The speaker in the Leslie has been replaced with an 8 ohm 10". It originally had a 4 ohm 10". I want to know what kind of load would it originally have placed on the amp when both were playing together. Or is the straight to Leslie sound better? And I want to know what it would do now that it has an 8 ohm speaker.

    I know how to add the "out" jack back and use both the Leslie and the cab. Should I? That is the og configuration, but is that worth it or should I just keep it straight 8 ohm?

    Why didn't the user's manual address speaker load? Does anybody care?

    I understand the basics of speaker loads and OTs. My question is about the og Leslie wiring specifically and if it is better to run it that way or not. Thanks.
     
  2. ASC67

    ASC67 Friend of Leo's

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  3. javabirds

    javabirds Tele-Holic

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    Thanks for the link. I read that a few times over the weekend but I still don't know how the crossover effects the overall load. My x-over has the female plug removed. I was wondering if I could just make an adaptor to plug the Leslie into one of the 4 speakers in my 71 SR. That way I could run both together without an impedance mis-match. Is that a dumb idea?

    I've been cleaning it up and inspecting the amphenol connectors. Everything looks good, but someone obviously removed the female 1/4". Without that, is there a possible issue with turning the speaker off with the foot switch? Wouldn't that leave my OT disconnected from a speaker? I can wire in a replacement using the wiring diagram, but I'm looking for a little advice/experience...
     
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  5. ASC67

    ASC67 Friend of Leo's

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    I wish I could be of more help but I don't really know anything about the Leslies. Hopefully someone will chime in that is more knowledgeable
     
  6. javabirds

    javabirds Tele-Holic

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    I've read quite a bit online and the views are split. Some people hate the crossover and want to chuck it and run straight to the speaker. Others think the crossover is where it is at and the best possible sound. I found a replacement for > $300!! Either way no one seems to care what amp you plug it up to regardless of the speaker load. I find this interesting and wonder why!? This is really what prompted me to ask in the first place.

    Still looking for someone with experience...
     
  7. javabirds

    javabirds Tele-Holic

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    Today I used the wiring diagram to reinstall the "out" jack and enable the crossover as per OG design. I found several online Leslie shops where I can pick up another 6 pin amphenol so I think I am going to buy one and make another pig tail so that swapping from Leslie w/crossover + amp and just running the Leslie like an extension cab is as easy as just swapping cables.

    The Leslie 16 is wired so that it is in series with your cab and both are meant to work together. Apparently a lot of guys preferred to ditch the crossover and use a dedicated amp through an A/B/Y. I think I'm happy having both the stock option and the cab mod available. But my question still stands about speaker load! What is the deal? Why didn't the amp manual address the issue? It came w/ a 4 ohm but mine's been swapped for an 8 ohm. I have tons of 10"s to try but none of them are 4 ohm.

    How do you run your Leslie 16/18/Vibratone???
     
  8. ASC67

    ASC67 Friend of Leo's

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    Well it would depend on the amp used and its impedance I suppose.

    I'm really surprised that no one else has chimed in.
     
  9. javabirds

    javabirds Tele-Holic

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    The problem is that I have several amps that I could use with it:
    Super Reverb (2 ohm), a 5e3 Tweed Deluxe (8 ohm), an 18 watt (4,8 & 16 ohm taps), a 5f1 champ (4 ohms)...

    According to the booklet that goes with the Leslie, with the stock 4 ohm 10" speaker it came with I can just plug up to any of these and sail along. But I didn't think that would be best so I started asking questions.

    So the other problem is that I don't have any 4 ohm 10"s, just several 8 ohm. But I can rectify that if I need to - that's why I'm asking!

    Also I have the option to run it stock w/the crossover and the amp's speaker cab or just as an extension cab straight from the amp.
     
  10. ojaverde

    ojaverde Tele-Holic

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    I have a leslie 16 that I had to build the electronics for. I followed the scematics in the manual. I can run it two ways. One way is to plug the leslie into the Speaker jack on my amp, and the amps speaker plugs into the female jack on the Leslie cable. this way the switch switches between apm speaker and Leslie speaker.(I do not have the crossover, so it's full range signal to either speaker). The other way is to leave the amps speaker plugged in to the speaker jack and plug the Leslie into the ext speaker jack. Then the footswitch turns the leslie on and of but when it's on it's is in conjuction with the amps speaker. I have run it both ways with my 1964 deluxe with no problems. The Deluxe wants to see an 8 ohm load. It can handle the 4 ohm Leslie with no problems. I think that the load is 6 ohms when both speakers are on together(also haven't had a problem). I think you could run it with your 5e3 and the 18 watt with no problems, but the Super reverb might not like the 8 ohm load so much.
     
  11. javabirds

    javabirds Tele-Holic

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    Does the Leslie 16 manual have the same schematic as the Vibraverb? With the crossover? Every schematic I have seen is Vibraverb w/crossover.

    I plugged it up with my Deluxe and they sounded good together through the crossover. I did order a 4 ohm Weber ceramic California 12" today. Everything I could find said that the 16 & 18 are identical except for the larger speaker -even the same baffle cutout. Can anyone verify that?

    I also ordered another amphenol connector so that I can plug straight in like an extension cab w/o the crossover.
     
  12. javabirds

    javabirds Tele-Holic

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    Okay, here is what I think is going on with the Leslie and my amps (Super Reverb, Deluxe, 18 watt, Champ):

    When the Leslie 16 is running a 4 ohm speaker (stock) and wired parallel with these amps using the stock wiring adaptor w/crossover here are the calculations:

    SR: 2 ohm + 4 ohm= 1.33 ohms
    DL: 8 ohm + 4 ohm= 2.67 ohms
    18: 16 ohm + 4 ohm= 3.2 ohms
    CH: 4 ohm + 4 ohm= 2 ohms

    When the Leslie 16 is running a 8 ohm speaker and wired parallel with these amps using the stock wiring adaptor w/crossover here are the calculations:

    SR: 2 ohm + 8 ohm= 1.6 ohms
    DL: 8 ohm + 8 ohm= 4 ohms
    18: 16 ohm + 8 ohm= 5.33 ohms
    CH: 4 ohm + 8 ohm= 2.67 ohms

    Can someone verify that it is parallel looking at this schematic? Anyone care to check my math and offer suggestions?
     

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  13. ASC67

    ASC67 Friend of Leo's

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    Here's a friendly bump for you .
     
  14. DonC1966

    DonC1966 TDPRI Member

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    It's not as simple as combining the Leslie and amp speaker ohms when using the crossover. Capacitor C2 is a low pass filter, cutting off the high frequencies. It acts like a low resistance to bass and a high resistance to the treble frequencies. Capacitor C3 and inductor L1 are high pass filters which provide a high resistance for bass and low resistance to highs. The combination of these filters (one cutting the bass and one cutting the highs) allow just the midrange to pass through to the Leslie speaker. The resistance (ohms) seen by the amp changes with frequency. Because of the crossover, the Leslie speaker provides less of a load on the amp than just a speaker alone. That's why Leslie / Fender Vibratone speakers can be used with just about any Fender tube amp.

    Inductor L1 passes most of the power directly back to the amp speaker, minimizing the load presented by the Leslie speaker.

    That's my story and I could be completely wrong!
     
  15. javabirds

    javabirds Tele-Holic

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  16. DonC1966

    DonC1966 TDPRI Member

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    Here's my restored Leslie 16. I recovered it in Fender brown tolex. Built my own crossover inside an old Traynor foot switch. There's 1/4" IN/OUT jacks on the back of the foot switch to connect it between the main amp and speaker (1964 Bandmaster in a 2x10" combo).

    Don

    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]
     
  17. BootRoots

    BootRoots Tele-Holic

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    Whoa. Very nice. Ive never had the crossover to my Leslie 16. Do you notice a huge difference with it?
     
  18. DonC1966

    DonC1966 TDPRI Member

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    I've never used mine without the crossover.
     
  19. javabirds

    javabirds Tele-Holic

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    That looks great! Does it have the OG 10" or a replacement? 8 or 4 ohm?

    I'll post some pics of mine when the weber arrives and I install it along with a new belt and oil the thing. Right now the fast speed is a little noisy. Have you got any advice on following the book on servicing the motor?
     
  20. javabirds

    javabirds Tele-Holic

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    Okay, the 4 ohm Weber California 12" arrived today so I will revisit this thread. So, now that I am back to original spec on the speaker, are there any issues running this thing for hours with any of the amps I listed above? Tips or thoughts?
     
  21. javabirds

    javabirds Tele-Holic

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    Anyone using a 4 ohm vibraverb/Leslie??? Anyone ever owned one and used it for hours with vintage tube amp circuits??????
     
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