Asher Guitars WD Music Products Amplified Parts Mod Kits DIY Nordstarnd Pickups Warmoth.com
Asher Guitars WD Music Products Amplified Parts Mod Kits DIY Nordstarnd Pickups Warmoth.com
Asher Guitars WD Music Products Amplified Parts Mod Kits DIY Nordstarnd Pickups Warmoth.com

Laugh if you must, but...

Discussion in 'Tele-Technical' started by Peter Rabbit, Apr 5, 2010.

  1. Peter Rabbit

    Peter Rabbit Tele-Holic

    Age:
    67
    895
    Sep 17, 2009
    Toronto, Ontario, Canada
    Hi CC! I've noticed that we're half a world away from each other, and therefore your 4 PM is my 4 AM or so. A few words, then wait 12 hours. Odd way to have a conversation.

    Can we start closer to the beginning? Do we agree on this?

    [​IMG]

    If not, would you please fix it?

    If so, how about this?

    [​IMG]

    I didn't care so much about the phase issue, as I'm having phase switches anyway, but anything to make you feel better. I'm certain about the phase switches, I'll cover the pots in a while, and there's still the question of the resistor for the tone. One thing at a time.

    TO BE CONTINUED...

    Peter

    --------------

    Q: What's the definition of Irish foreplay?
    A: Brace yourself, Maggie.
     

  2. donh

    donh Tele-Afflicted

    Apr 25, 2010
    Oh Aich Ten

    okey.

    The top diagram actually goes series/parallel. You have now reached the beginning.

    The bottom diagram is two pairs of pickups with each pair series/paralleled, but the pairs are always paralleled to each other. If this is what you intend, then you are fine and can proceed.
     

  3. Peter Rabbit

    Peter Rabbit Tele-Holic

    Age:
    67
    895
    Sep 17, 2009
    Toronto, Ontario, Canada
    donh: howdy and thanks for helping!

    I'm very happy that I've got the basic 2-pup module sorted!

    Unfortunately, I was hoping for unrestricted Ser/Par switching. So how do I hook those circuits in the 2nd pic together such that I can also switch S/P between them - and then I'm looking to add a 5th pup.

    I'm trying to get the S/P working in every combo for 5 single coils, and I thought that there would be a (relatively) simple way to approach this - doesn't seem to be the case!

    Thanks again

    Peter

    --------------

    Golfer: "I've played so poorly all day; I think I'm going to go drown myself in that lake."
    Caddy: "I doubt you could keep your head down that long."
     

  4. cc9cii

    cc9cii Friend of Leo's

    Feb 24, 2009
    Sydney
    I've already posted a generalised solution where any pickup can be series or parallel connected - the limitation being that there are only two groups of pickups (one group = series with each other & the second group = parallel with each other).

    In theory you can have three groups (not five - might be counter intuitive, but five groups is equivalent to have *no* groups). i.e.

    G1=series + G2=series is really the same as all pickups in G1 & G1 in series as a single group

    So the most complex you can have is:

    (2 pickups in parallel) in series with (a pickup) in series with (2 pickups in parallel)

    or

    (2 pickups in series) in parallel with (a pickup) in parallel with (2 pickups in series)

    but I would contend that the tone you get would be the same as (4 pickups in parallel) in series with (one pickup) or (4 pickups in series) parallel with (one pickup).

    I'm kinda rushing this at work, so if anyone can see errors in my logic please point them out.
     

  5. Peter Rabbit

    Peter Rabbit Tele-Holic

    Age:
    67
    895
    Sep 17, 2009
    Toronto, Ontario, Canada
    Hey guyz, how about this?

    [​IMG]

    CC, does this fall into the 'group' dynamic? Pups 1 & 2, pups 3 & 4, and pup 5: 3 groups? It doesn't really seem like it to me. My perspective is that with this wiring (if it works) I can have 1 & 2 EITHER Serial OR parallel, 3 & 4 EITHER Serial OR parallel, and pup 5 ser or par with the other choices. That's 8 combos. Does that look right to you?

    But will it work?

    OK - 6AM, time for bed. Always fun folks!

    Peter

    -------------

    Keep your ear to the ground and your nose to the grindstone - now try and work that way.
     

  6. cc9cii

    cc9cii Friend of Leo's

    Feb 24, 2009
    Sydney
    Looks like you're determined to do it your way. That's the way to learn things. Good luck.
     

  7. Peter Rabbit

    Peter Rabbit Tele-Holic

    Age:
    67
    895
    Sep 17, 2009
    Toronto, Ontario, Canada
    CC: Don't go away - I sure didn't mean to dis you in any way. I'm just tryna find a way to get more options than the two you listed.

    I'll tell you what it is. All my life I've been able to figure IT out, whatever IT was - taught myself music theory, how to play a bunch of instruments, high-energy quantum physics, whatever.

    And now, I'm having trouble figuring out some simple wiring that I know I should see intuitively and immediately. I'm truly sorry if I've seemed obstinate, but I suppose that's just my way after 60 years.

    In any event, I appreciate the help you've given me so far, and I would like very much if you would stick around.

    Thanks again,

    Peter

    --------------

    Famous Last Words: Nice doggie.
     

  8. donh

    donh Tele-Afflicted

    Apr 25, 2010
    Oh Aich Ten
    Peter,

    Your 5-pickup example in the last fig 199742-b will "work", but you will always have all the pickups on. Once you add on/off or level controls then you are either killing the sound in odd ways or duplicating function.

    If you go to the 4-pickup fig 199742-b and look at it, what you have is pairs of single-coils that are wired as ser/par humbuckers. I have this in my SG, using 4-wire Lollar Imperials. If I hadn't built my short-scale bog-standard-wired Tele, the SG would get a whole lot more play time :)

    You have stated repeatedly that you want unlimited ser/par switching with 6 pickups and that you consider it to be a simple wiring problem. Please understand that this desire is far from a simple wiring problem, if for no other reason than you are spending all these days with no solution in sight, AND no-one else has done this.

    In order to achieve your stated ends, you really need what is called a matrix switcher. A simple 1-pole matrix switcher will give you 90 possible combinations. I will leave it to you to calculate the possible combinations once you add series/parallel to the mix. At some point one meeds to pare down the possible combinations to a usable subset, if for no other reason than physical limitations of switch location.
     

  9. cc9cii

    cc9cii Friend of Leo's

    Feb 24, 2009
    Sydney
    Once more let me say (and for the last time - lest it become self promotion) that I've posted a solution where you can have any number of pickups - 10 if you want - in series/parallel.

    There may be other ways to do the same thing, and better ways to do the same thing. And either way it would be impractical for a musician in a real world. The only use might be as a puzzle for those curious about these things.

    I'm not sure how to "teach" someone on something like this. I never have the patience nor any kind of teaching skills. Nevertheless I'll ramble on and hopefully some of these will make sense.

    First of all, I have assumed a few things without scientifically proving them. One of those is "commutativity" of pickups. Note that is not to say the "positions" of the pickups are not important - clearly they are - but the way they are electrically wired do not matter which order.

    This follows that if there are pickups A, B, C, D and E you can wire them (say serially for this example) A+B+C+D+E or B+E+D+A+C.

    Once we get past this "commutativity", then we have the following possible. Say the pickups B & C are wired in parallel and the others are in series. That means we have A + nothing + nothing + D + E for the pickups in series. Using the commutativity property, we now have (A + D + E) + (nothing + nothing). I have placed brackets to aid understanding. See how they are now in two groups, one group for pickups wired in series and the other group for pickups wired in parallel.

    The second key thing to explore is the difference between a pickup wired in series vs a pickup wired in parallel. This is somewhat like the common example of wiring light switches at the either end of a long corridor. Essentially we have a AND or OR logic here. Those pickups in series are wired in AND fashion while those pickups in parallel are wired in OR fashion. If one of the pickups wired in series fail with an open circuit, then *none* of the pickups in series will produce a sound. However if one of the pickups in parallel fail with an open circuit, the others will continue to work happily.

    The third key thing to work out is the frame of reference for the series / parallel connection. Are they connected series/parallel in a pair only, or all 5 pickups? Your last example have connected two pairs of pickups series/parallel. My example connects pickups series parallel to the two designated groups. That is, when you decide to connect a pickup in "parallel" way, you have to decide parallel to "what". That "what" could be a pickup near by (your example) or the whole guitar (my example*).

    * this is not quite true, since I allow the parallel group to be connected in series with the series group

    HTH
     

  10. cc9cii

    cc9cii Friend of Leo's

    Feb 24, 2009
    Sydney
    Just to add: the reason for the AND / OR logic discussion is to explain the need to provide a pass through connection to the "series" part of the wiring if a pickup is connected as parallel. Otherwise, the whole "series" part stops working (as if one of the pickups failed with an open circuit).
     

  11. Peter Rabbit

    Peter Rabbit Tele-Holic

    Age:
    67
    895
    Sep 17, 2009
    Toronto, Ontario, Canada
    Hey guyz: sorry it's been so long, but I'm in the process of moving, and moving a household's (30 years) worth of stuff, so I fully expect to spend the next year asking my darling wife "do you know where the _____ is?"

    In any event, I read a post that said if you have a volume system like an LP or SG, where, when either vol is turned CCW, then the entire guitar is 'off'. The solution he presented was to swap the leads to each of the vol pots, such that the center lug is fed by the pup's signal, rather than the left lug. I don't see the diff, but then I can't see my feet, either.

    CC: I think I'm starting to see the grouped arrangement of Ser/Par in theory, but actually wiring the thing is an entirely different beast.

    I found this:
    [​IMG]
    and
    [​IMG]
    (Thanks to John Atchley and DGB)

    CC: Do these fit into the 'grouping' concept you embraced? At least Mr. Atchley's seems to. (I believe that the red is series and the blue is parallel). The one from DGB doesn't make sense to me - it looks like the switches are either all series, or if any or all are switched the other way, everything turns off - yes?

    I do 'get' the basic 'Christmas tree' Ser/Par wiring - series = one off, all off vs. parallel = one off, all others still on. When you showed me the wiring diagrams, you prefaced it with "I seriously doubt this will have any practical value, but here it is for your enjoyment...", so I didn't really study them too closely - having looked, I see the logic, but still don't know how to translate all of this reasoning into a wiring diagram.

    donh: I tried to locate a "simple 1-pole matrix switcher" all over the web and came up with some $4,000.00 switching system and not much else.
    Do you have any more info?

    Thanks again for hangin' around.

    Peter
     

  12. cc9cii

    cc9cii Friend of Leo's

    Feb 24, 2009
    Sydney
    The first one does what my diagram does (partly). The red circuit is 'series' and the blue circuit is 'parallel'. The difference is that blue and red can't be on at the same time with this one. (also has separate tones as a by-product of that)

    The second one does 'series' only.
     

  13. donh

    donh Tele-Afflicted

    Apr 25, 2010
    Oh Aich Ten
    How many high-dollar matrix switchers do you wish to read about?
     

  14. Peter Rabbit

    Peter Rabbit Tele-Holic

    Age:
    67
    895
    Sep 17, 2009
    Toronto, Ontario, Canada
    Hi folks.

    CC: does this allow for both series and parallel at the same time, or does the separate S/P switch produce either/or? (unfortunately, I still don't speak schematic) OR, and I think this is prolly it, does it switch the Ser/Par relationship between the series group & the parallel group?

    [​IMG]

    I'll next attempt to redraw my diagram using these ideas. CC, you are being helpful over and above, and I REALLY appreciate it.

    donh: "How many high-dollar matrix switchers do you wish to read about?" - None - I'm afraid I don't understand.

    Thankful as always

    Peter
     

  15. Peter Rabbit

    Peter Rabbit Tele-Holic

    Age:
    67
    895
    Sep 17, 2009
    Toronto, Ontario, Canada
    Hi again. Couldn't wait.

    Well, I think I'm halfway done, at least I hope so.

    CC: What do you think? I still have two wires on each S/P switch to deal with, as well as the 'master vol & tone':
    [​IMG]
    but I don't see how they connect. (Just kidding with the pup names)

    These schematics, while very useful, don't, in my mind, translate to diagrams.

    And, I think it would be better to put the volumes before the phase switches (which are also pup on/off) to remove their resistance from the main path when the pups are off. Agree? I am using 1Meg pots all round.

    Believe it or not, I really don't like asking for help!

    Thanks dudes!

    Peter
     

  16. Peter Rabbit

    Peter Rabbit Tele-Holic

    Age:
    67
    895
    Sep 17, 2009
    Toronto, Ontario, Canada
    It's O.K. - I'm back now.

    I think I may have actually cracked this S/P thing!
    [​IMG]

    PLEASE tell me I'm not too far off!

    Hoping for an omen of good fortune to smile upon me.

    Peter
     

  17. cc9cii

    cc9cii Friend of Leo's

    Feb 24, 2009
    Sydney
    The scheme by John S. Atchley and myself can't be done with DPDT toggle. If you insist on using DPDT toggles then you have to come up with something else.

    The latest drawing - and I tried to explain this before, but perhaps poorly - as soon as you have one of the pickups as "parallel" *all* of the pickups in "series" will fail to work. It's like some X-mas tree lights where one dead bulb means no lights at all.
     

  18. Peter Rabbit

    Peter Rabbit Tele-Holic

    Age:
    67
    895
    Sep 17, 2009
    Toronto, Ontario, Canada
    Ahh - Can't be done with DPDTs - well, that certainly helps explain why I'm having SO much trouble trying to internalize this!

    No, I'm not married to the notion of DPDTs, they're just what I happen to have - what do I need - 6 x 3PDT? And at this point, a diagram of one of the switches (assuming they all look basically alike (ha)) wouldn't be the worst thing in the world either.

    And also, no, you explained the X-mas tree lights concept very well and I get it - I just don't know how to wire it in this context.

    I feel that I'm getting closer to sumpin that will work, but then I feel like I'm 30, so it just goes to show how wrong one can be.

    Still tryin'

    Peter
     

  19. cc9cii

    cc9cii Friend of Leo's

    Feb 24, 2009
    Sydney
    There is a diagram of 4pdt in my drawing? I don't think 3pdt toggles would be common.
     

  20. Peter Rabbit

    Peter Rabbit Tele-Holic

    Age:
    67
    895
    Sep 17, 2009
    Toronto, Ontario, Canada
    Would 3PDTs be better, cos I found an inexpensive supply (2.95 for 1st switch - .50 for each additional)? I think anything more than that will be too wide (or long) to fit in a Tele body.

    If so, would Mr. Atchley's schematic do the trick?

    If so, I'm gonna need some assistance converting from schem to diagram.

    Keepin the faith

    Peter
     

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