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Kinman treble bleed

Discussion in 'Tele-Technical' started by jfgesquire, Nov 7, 2018.

  1. jfgesquire

    jfgesquire Tele-Meister

    Age:
    51
    203
    May 23, 2018
    Lake View
    I got to try out a couple treble bleed circuits on a Tele equipped with Alnico 5's (Toneriders) and really liked what the Kinman series circuit did.

    There are no electronics retailers anywhere near me that sell caps and resistors like that anymore, and heck, I don't even know where to get 22 gauge wire local anymore.

    But I found the identical recommended 1200pf caps and 130k resistors online for dirt cheap in a 50 pack EACH.

    So, if anyone wants to try the Kinman treble bleed circuit I'll probably be giving a few (lol) sets away for the cost of postage and an envelope!
     
  2. TRexF16

    TRexF16 Friend of Leo's

    Apr 4, 2011
    Tucson
    Well sure, I can always use some more. I'll PM you.
    Regarding the 22 guage wire - that was just a side comment, right? Because that should not be required for doing your treble bleed mod.

    Cheers,
    Rex
     
  3. joe_cpwe

    joe_cpwe Tele-Meister Silver Supporter

    Age:
    49
    292
    Nov 27, 2017
    USA
    FWIW , I like the Kinman style on my HSS strat but like 50s wiring on my SSS Strat

    On my HSS I tried 50s and the interaction betwrrn knobs was wierd.
    So, ran a few leads out of my Strat a few months back to solve the treble bleed riddle on it.
    Had a how different caps and resistors.
    Tried cap only, too harsh
    Tried Duncan style, good, but the Vol knob wasn't reactive early enough.
    Kinman was my preference with most values.
    BTW, I don't remember what values I settled on.
     
  4. jfgesquire

    jfgesquire Tele-Meister

    Age:
    51
    203
    May 23, 2018
    Lake View
    That's for running wire from the 4-way to the pots and to the jack. I took the old wiring out as a complete unit so that changing back will be much easier.


    Edit:. Forgot to add... I'm also installing greasebucket, so it's more than just the cap and resistor on the volume pot otherwise I would have left the stock wiring and controls.
     
  5. NilsZippo

    NilsZippo TDPRI Member

    61
    Dec 1, 2015
    Austin
    If you're serious, I'd be interested in trying one out at some point. I'm just getting started on my own electronics tweaks and was wondering if you'd mind sharing where you ordered from.
     
  6. telemnemonics

    telemnemonics Doctor of Teleocity

    Age:
    59
    Mar 2, 2010
    Maine
    First 49 responders get a free treble bleed kit?
    Cool!

    Those are somewhat odd values, 1200pf is awfully close to 1000pf or .001uf, which I probably have, but maybe the fine tuning is the detail that makes it sound better.
    And I probably have lots of 100k resistors, maybe not 130k, but I'm not really familiar with resistors and their values as much as caps.
    Even there though I have to look up the uf to pf conversion, as I've always thought thousandths of a uf, instead of hundreds of pf's.
    Arf arf!
     
  7. jfgesquire

    jfgesquire Tele-Meister

    Age:
    51
    203
    May 23, 2018
    Lake View
    I thought the amounts were awfully specific as well, but these are right from the Kinman website:

    https://kinman.com/perfect-guitar.php#volumePots
     
    Golem and telemnemonics like this.
  8. TimTam

    TimTam Tele-Meister

    415
    Jun 4, 2010
    Melbourne
    [​IMG]
    Although I find mF confusing (potentially milliFarad) when uF (microFarad) is meant.
     
    Last edited: Nov 10, 2018
    skunqesh likes this.
  9. TRexF16

    TRexF16 Friend of Leo's

    Apr 4, 2011
    Tucson
    While we're on the subject, I have tried a few different of these options and generally found the .001uf cap and a 150K resistor in parallel (closest to the Duncan in the diagram above) to be the best for me. But I'm going to try the Kinman option as shown in series and see what I think.

    Rex
     
  10. Golem

    Golem Tele-Holic

    I’ve had the Kinman treble bleed. It works well.
     
  11. PhatBoy

    PhatBoy Tele-Afflicted

    Mar 17, 2003
    OKC, OK
    I'll ride this horse! where to send what?
     
  12. Old Tele man

    Old Tele man Friend of Leo's

    May 10, 2017
    Tucson, AZ
    Last edited: Nov 11, 2018
    bender66 likes this.
  13. TRexF16

    TRexF16 Friend of Leo's

    Apr 4, 2011
    Tucson
    I didn't see a discussion of wiring the cap and resistor in series in that linked article, just the straight cap alone (Simple), and cap/resistor parallel (Duncan) - did I miss something?

    Thanks,
    Rex
     
  14. Old Tele man

    Old Tele man Friend of Leo's

    May 10, 2017
    Tucson, AZ
    The higher the signal frequency, the more the capacitor acts like a dead short, which parallels it's R (of the RC) with the upper portion of the VOL pot. It's a frequency-dependent paralleling action. At low freqs, the cap acts like an open, so does nothing and its R does nothing.
     
  15. TRexF16

    TRexF16 Friend of Leo's

    Apr 4, 2011
    Tucson
    This is kind of cryptic to me and I bet most of the folks reading it. We'd rather hear a description of what it's going to sound like. Your previous referenced link implied there would be a comparison of series to parallel wiring of the cap and resistor in treble bleed circuits, but there was no discussion of series. Please give a layman's version of what one can expect in observable performance between the Kinman (series) and Duncan (parallel) wiring option for the cap and resistor in a treble bleed circuit.

    And since we're both in Tucson, but have never met, I'd be happy to buy you a drink some time if you want to teach me some more in exchange!

    Cheers,
    Rex
     
  16. Old Tele man

    Old Tele man Friend of Leo's

    May 10, 2017
    Tucson, AZ
    Last edited: Nov 14, 2018
  17. jrblue

    jrblue Tele-Holic

    670
    Nov 14, 2010
    Santa Barbara
    I find that the component values are even more important than whether you use Kinman or Duncan wiring (I'v used both). It really, really, really pays to experiment with a range of values rather than just going with what this or that person recommended. I find modern wiring with good treble bleed to be much more functional than the interactive science experiment known as 50s wiring.
     
  18. TRexF16

    TRexF16 Friend of Leo's

    Apr 4, 2011
    Tucson
    On the Kinman, does it matter whether the resistor or the cap is "first" in the series? Here I am defining "first" as the component that is closest to the first lug of the volume pot.

    Thanks,
    Rex
     
  19. Old Tele man

    Old Tele man Friend of Leo's

    May 10, 2017
    Tucson, AZ
    No, the order ("...who's on first...") doesn't matter; RC is electrically same as CR.
     
  20. bender66

    bender66 Poster Extraordinaire Silver Supporter

    Jan 18, 2010
    on my bike
    I'm in for a set please. :)

    I thought the video specifies the resistor being first in series on L1 for the Kinman, or is their any noticeable difference?

    This makes me think of another questionable topic regarding series use on a 4 way pickup switch. In another thread someone had recommended to the modder to wire it so the bridge pickup is "seen first" when switched to his series position on his new 4 way switch. Is that possible? Would there be an audible difference if so?
     
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