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Indy car vs formula 1

Discussion in 'Bad Dog Cafe' started by uriah1, Mar 11, 2018.

  1. alathIN

    alathIN Tele-Meister

    Oct 25, 2017
    I would be reluctant to characterize either the CART or the Tony George side of the fight as the "good guys."

    Tony had a point. CART was a "franchise" cartel, which limited participation and made it effectively impossible for second tier teams to win or third tier teams to even exist.
    Unfortunately Tony approached that problem that in a bull-in-a-china-shop fashion.
    What you see today in IndyCar is a lot more like Tony's vision than CART, and it is more entertaining racing with a more feasible price tag.
    The cost of implementing that vision was a decade of internecine warfare, during which every other kind of racing ate up market share.
    Sadly, IndyCar is a better product, but as a result of the years of warfare may be less successful.
  2. tery

    tery Poster Extraordinaire Silver Supporter

    Sep 21, 2012
    Simply - Mr. Tony George would not let CART drivers race in the (his) Indianapolis 500 .
    The fans suffered the loss of seeing some of the top drivers compete in the Indy 500 .
    The CART drivers and teams were denied an opportunity to win the 500 .
    . . . . . . Tony took his ball and went home .
    Tele1966 likes this.
  3. boris bubbanov

    boris bubbanov Telefied Ad Free Member

    The way Tony and his friends robbed Paul Tracy of an obvious 500 win was worse than shameful.

    It still keeps me from ordering the kind of cable I would need to get more live broadcasts. If the contest is about kinship and business, and not about Sport, then screw it.
    Pappy Yokum and tery like this.
  4. boris bubbanov

    boris bubbanov Telefied Ad Free Member

    You know, the fact that the NFL and NBA and MLB is also franchise - this has never bothered me at all.

    NASCAR's glory days also had a certain group of Kings and everyone else was just there to collect the entry purse, maybe get a cute fuel mileage win once in their careers.

    To me, there's simply no argument in favor of Tony George that works for me, except, there were a heck of a lot of races and lots of sponsor money and a lot of new drivers got chances to drive when maybe in another time they would not have. With two dueling series. Sometimes the George series produced good racing in spite of everything, but that's IMO not a valid argument that Tony George did anything good or ever made any worthwhile decisions. The Indianapolis 500 was once one of the biggest sporting events in the civilized world and today, the day comes and goes and I'm doing something else and I, for one, would suggest had George not pulled all this nonsense, "The 500" would still be a really huge thing.
    tery and Tele1966 like this.
  5. uriah1

    uriah1 Doctor of Teleocity Ad Free Member

    Feb 12, 2011
    K .. I did not know how drastically they may have changed since the 60s
    Last edited: Mar 12, 2018
  6. swany

    swany Tele-Meister

    Sep 12, 2003
    Evergreen, Colorado
    I love the track in Austin "Circuit of the Americas" with that uphill front straight, great track.
    It seems to be generating some interest in F1 in the States, (formula one holds the current track record).
  7. alathIN

    alathIN Tele-Meister

    Oct 25, 2017
    Not exactly.
    Any teams - including CART teams - could have raced in the Indy 500 if they ran cars that were legal under the new rules.
    That is, in fact, what Penske and a couple of other CART teams did for a few years - went to Indy and raced there with Indy spec cars, then raced the rest of the season in CART races under CART rules with CART spec cars.

    TG was right: CART was not sustainable, and NASCAR was generating superior entertainment by being less expensive and having more equal, more "race-able" cars. He may not have gone about it in the most diplomatic way, but he was right.

    He didn't take his ball and go home. You could just as easily say CART refused to come play because the ball was different.
  8. Obsessed

    Obsessed Doctor of Teleocity Ad Free Member

    Nov 21, 2012
    An interesting read and great comments on this thread. My perspective is that Indy and F-1 were both born from different perspectives and went their natural paths. I've been to both kinds plus helping my BIL with some serious SCCA racing, When I think of Indy, I see the up and coming drivers coming from circle track dirt racing. It is a specatator sport not much different from NASCAR. Hence, a U.S. auto racing sport deep in the blood of America. Whereas, F-1 is purely a driver's sport. Difficult to watch as a spectator and actually someways better to watch on TV. The skill level of F-1 drivers is way above Indy in so many ways. I think someone earlier mentioned Fittapaldi and his transition from F-1 to Indy was relatively easy, proves the point. Indy cars are blazing fast around the oval and to be there and watch them go by is an experience not to be missed, but to watch a F-1 car go in and come out of a hairpin turn is just as amazing to watch, but a much higher level skill to pull off.

    Personally, I'm more of an endurance or rallye race fan. Both are more grueling and the cars are more durable.
    uriah1 likes this.
  9. homesick345

    homesick345 Poster Extraordinaire

    Jan 20, 2012
    Beirut, Lebanon
    On quality of driving alone - pure talent - the European drivers will forever reign supreme; be it Rallye or F1 or whatever

    A handful geniuses from Brazil; Australia; & even North America (Phil Hill; the unforgettable Gilles villeneuve; etc..) doesn't change that fact

    that's my humble opinion (as a guy who adored racing in the late 60s 70s & 80s)

    Back to our question; I am sorry; but Indy car doesn't even qualify in the same History books. Jim Clark; Jacky Stewart; Jochen Rindt; Stirling Moss, Ascari; Tazzio Nuvolari; Fangio; etc..etc..that's the chicago & mississippi bluesmen compared to the Partridge Family... :)
    Last edited: Mar 12, 2018
  10. unixfish

    unixfish Poster Extraordinaire

    Apr 20, 2013
    Northeast Ohio, USA
    "The Troll" and Max. I'd love to bring up history about Max, but I'd also like to be able to continue posting on this site, so...
    boris bubbanov and alathIN like this.
  11. alathIN

    alathIN Tele-Meister

    Oct 25, 2017
    Delighted that you remembered Fangio and the Flying Mantuan on your list.

    Please allow me to add Gilles Villeneuve, Niki Lauda, Aryton Senna, and Rudy Caracciola.
    homesick345 and boris bubbanov like this.
  12. jhundt

    jhundt Doctor of Teleocity

    Mar 23, 2003
    There's only one Max that matters in F1 these days! - and it ain't that guy you're talking about.
    Pappy Yokum and homesick345 like this.
  13. alathIN

    alathIN Tele-Meister

    Oct 25, 2017
    These guys used a mathematical model to figure out who are the best F1 drivers, correcting for the effects of their cars and teams.
    Interesting results.

    Not at all surprised to see Fangio at the top, but there are some surprises further down.
    Gilles Villeneuve didn't make the list, and he always seemed to do superhumanly well with junk cars.

    It's also surprising how many "team #2" drivers are on the list ahead of their "#1" teammates.
    Reggazoni > Lauda
    Peterson > Andretti

    They also said that the % of results determined by the driver has decreased over time. As recently as the 80s, drivers accounted for 30% of the variance in outcomes. Now it's under 10%.
    homesick345 and 6stringcowboy like this.
  14. Artslap

    Artslap Tele-Holic Silver Supporter

    Mar 17, 2014
    Sydney, Australia
    There's only one thing that counts among the drivers and that's being crowned world champion.

    Names like Amon, Gilles and to a lesser degree Moss are only for us Anoraks.

    There can be only one, and the lengths a driver will go to (or not go to) be be world champion are a large part of the intrigue and interest in a specific season.

    Heros and Villains. Brian was spot on.

    Baku anyone?

    alathIN and 6stringcowboy like this.
  15. JazzboxBlues

    JazzboxBlues Tele-Holic

    Dec 6, 2014
    Crook County IL
    I know one is a hell of a lot more dependable. This Corvette will only set you back $120,000. I don’t know what you’d have to spend on a factory built car to match it. Not to mention easy to get serviced at a local Chevy dealer.
    Last edited: Mar 12, 2018
  16. David Barnett

    David Barnett Poster Extraordinaire

    Clark, Stewart, Ascari, Nuvolari and Fangio all either competed in the Indianapolis 500 or at least attempted to qualify.
  17. unixfish

    unixfish Poster Extraordinaire

    Apr 20, 2013
    Northeast Ohio, USA
    Coming from the Netherlands. Go figure. :lol:
  18. Ricky D.

    Ricky D. Poster Extraordinaire

    Oct 22, 2006
    Raleigh, North Carolina
    Around 1970 or so, Dan Gurney got tired of hearing all the 'holier than thou" BS from the F1 crowd. He challenged the F1 players to a showdown at Nurburgring: Gurney driving his USAC car vs. any F! team that had the stones to show up. The stakes: $1,000,000 ante, winner take all. Considering all the woofing that had been going on, oddly there were no takers. They knew that Gurney would blow them away.
    olewaylon likes this.
  19. Obsessed

    Obsessed Doctor of Teleocity Ad Free Member

    Nov 21, 2012
    Well, the story is much more complex than that and certainly not concerned about being blown away ... where ever you heard that. Suffice to say, Dan was trying to prove out his new Indy car and trying to expand Indy racing, which BTW kept breaking down in the big races including the Indy 500. Part of the issue here are the rules that both organizations use for various purposes. Since oval racing is a brute force affair, the engines are huge, whereas the F-1 cars are more about breaking, handling and acceleration. As I recall Porsche and Ferrari were very interested in the challenge and Dan wanted Mario Andretti to race Dan's car, but even Mario sugggested that it would lose against the F-1 cars (I suspect due to the transmission and breaking superiority of F-1 cars). In the end, as I recall, it was tire sponsorships that was too big of a hurdle. It would have been a great time trial (it was not going to be a wheel to wheel race) and too bad it didn't happen.
    Ricky D. likes this.
  20. Mad Kiwi

    Mad Kiwi Friend of Leo's

    I agree fully.

    I don't recall the ins and outs but Tony George WAS the hero of the day taking on the massively monopolistic CART series which had started losing it's way really badly at the time.

    Whatever he later did to upset people he was on the right track with IRL. I think in 10 years time when the US single seater scene has repaired itself that split period will be seen as a necessary evil.

    I don't know about in the US but it seems from here Indy car is slowly winning back it's audiences.

    Ditching last years odd looking cars (a knee jerk reaction to a few serious crashes) and sharing the same aero again this year should also help.
    alathIN likes this.
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