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Indy car vs formula 1

Discussion in 'Bad Dog Cafe' started by uriah1, Mar 11, 2018.

  1. LarryInTexas

    LarryInTexas Tele-Meister

    Jul 2, 2012
    Champ Car (CART) and the Indy Racing League fought tooth and nail for years, trying to kill each other. Instead of working together to promote open wheel racing in the U.S. (each series had its own niche), each wanted the other dead.

    F1 has never been all that popular in the U.S., but CC and the IRL got greedy, and blew the chance to create a thriving open wheel environment here. The IRL - now called IndyCar - killed off CART, but it was out of greed and stupidity.

    F1 has its merits, and so did both U.S. series, once upon a time. F1 continues to enjoy world-wide popularity, but not so much in the U.S.
    Pappy Yokum, Tele1966 and tery like this.
  2. telemnemonics

    telemnemonics Doctor of Teleocity

    Mar 2, 2010
    F1 is custom shop
    Indy is american standard
    They tried to export Indianapolis but Indiana was not in agreement.
    LutherBurger and Tele1966 like this.
  3. beninma

    beninma Tele-Afflicted Silver Supporter

    Mar 17, 2017
    F1 is more money for money's sake than anything else. They spend a zillion dollars because it's an aristocratic European tradition. The rules are incredible, a lot of the engineering is because of the rules, not because it makes the cars faster.

    Take a look at the new show on Amazon Prime "Grand Prix Driver". There's a ton of great footage inside the McClaren HQ/Development center. Pretty easy to see where the money goes. The whole thing is totally ridiculous on many different levels.

    Indy cars seem more like Nascar in that it's much more down to earth and "roll your sleeves up".

    F1 Cars fall apart really fast outside of an F1 race too, I wouldn't necessarily bet that an F1 car would eat an Indy car alive like some other people too. The F1 teams have very little ability to adapt to anything outside the narrow window of what they prepared for.

    I went to the US Grand Prix debacle at Indianapolis in 2005. What a freakin mess. Basically they couldn't figure out how to get the F1 cars to drive around the bankings safely. And they couldn't figure out how to fix it so most of the teams went out on strike. IIRC there were 2 tire suppliers and one of the tire companies didn't show up with any tires that were safe on the banking. And they were only going around 1 corner at speed on the banking! And they sat around and blamed it all on the track. $300 million budget and they couldn't prepare when they new probably a year in advance they had a track with a banked corner on it?

    You could go on and on about that kind of stuff in F1. Another one of my favorites is the ban on CVT Transmissions. That was all politics, otherwise every F1 car would have had a CVT transmission for the past 20-25 years and all of ours street cars and sports cars probably would too because particularly the Europeans want to drive whatever tech is in F1 cars. So you'd have a bunch of really well developed CVTs instead of the overly complex/problematic DCT/SMT transmissions and awful things like 9-speed automatics.

    That said I was also at NH (Loudon) in 2011 for the Indy race and some of the teams couldn't figure out how to deal with the seams in the track and that kind of made that race a mess. I've done ~500 laps or so at Loudon on motorcycle. There are seams in the track at certain points where the banking & road course joint/split. These are tiny things, 1/4" or something and they would never upset a motorcycle or a street/sports car but for some reason some of the Indy teams couldn't figure out how to adjust their suspension/ride height for the track despite all their practice and they caused a ton of accidents in the exact same spots over and over and over which kind of ruined the race.
    olewaylon, Tele1966 and 6stringcowboy like this.
  4. unixfish

    unixfish Poster Extraordinaire

    Apr 20, 2013
    Northeast Ohio, USA
    Tony George. Need I say more?
    Tele1966 and tery like this.
  5. tery

    tery Poster Extraordinaire Silver Supporter

    Sep 21, 2012
    Open wheel racing is for sissies :D ... give me NASCAR and a beer :lol:
  6. telemnemonics

    telemnemonics Doctor of Teleocity

    Mar 2, 2010
    I don't think that's really a fair comparison, they both use cutting edge tech from the same DNA, but F1 is optimized for a different track condition and holds promise of a few hours more advanced tech, thus has more custom parts.
    Any useful advances in F1 will probably be available to Indycar off the shelf next year.

    Both are engineering wonders, more interesting to me than watching them go round and round. Not sure what it is but after my teens I kind of lost interest in watching that kind of stuff or idealizing the drivers.
    The tech continues to fascinate though.
    6stringcowboy likes this.
  7. VintageSG

    VintageSG Friend of Leo's Ad Free Member

    Mar 31, 2016
    I gradually drifted away from F1. If I need to fall asleep, I'll watch it.
    Thankfully, we have British Touring Cars!. The free to air coverage is excellent. The racing across all classes is close fought and it's edge of the seat stuff. I don't fall asleep when the BTCC coverage is on.
    British Superbikes is well represented too, but nowadays, sadly, no free to air MotoGP or World Superbikes.
    Sometimes in the stupid hours of a Sunday, there's highlights of endurance racing, that's fun. We don't get much Indy or Cart coverage here on free to air, so can't comment. F1 has become a snooze fest.
  8. bblumentritt

    bblumentritt Tele-Afflicted Platinum Supporter

    Dec 3, 2012
    Austin, Texas
    Lots of misinformation on this thread.

    Try this for an accurate comparison:

    I watch both. My son-in-law is a SCCA 2017 National Champion race car driver. He's raced against Marco Andretti (currently in IndyCar) and Sergio Perez (currently in F1). We go to the US Grand Prix F1 in Austin every year (my son-in-law holds the track record there for his class - he also has track records at Watkins Glen, Lime Rock, and Pocono.). I also go to see IndyCar at Fort Worth.

    After seeing me watch IndCar on TV, my wife wasn't too thrilled with the races. So, I took her to Fort Worth. We participated in a meet-and-greet with Eddie Gossage, the track president, and then watched the race, and she was like, "Oh, my!" We first watched the qualifying, and she was taken aback by the speed of the Indy cars, especially compared to the NASCAR trucks. Indy cars complete a 1.5 mile lap in about 25 seconds! The race is much more exciting in person, and you can see the entire track from you seat at Texas Motor Speedway.

    Watching road course races requires a bit more patience and understanding. You can't see the entire track. The F1 cars are very quick, and I find that the best way to watch is to follow the gaps between cars, to see who's catching whom, and then sit where you can see one of the passing spots. Passing in mid-pack is much more common than passing at the front (for some reason, they refer to passing as "overtaking". It must be a European thing. It's definitely not a Texas thang).

    The cars look similar, but F1 is the highest level of auto racing and world-wide, while IndyCar is more cost-controlled, USA-centric, and more diverse in track selection. Both have quirky rules that can be hard to understand when first viewing.
    • Both F1 and IndyCar race on street courses and purpose-built, natural terrain road courses; IndyCar also races on a few oval tracks.
    • During road course races, the field tends to get spread out. It's not unusual for a F1 driver to win a race by 18 seconds on a 3-mile track. Pit strategy plays a vital role on road/street courses more than on ovals, where teams tend to pit on normal cycles. Oval racing, such as at Iowa or Texas, can produce wheel-to-wheel racing at 200+ mph.
    • Both cars produce high downforce. IndyCar reduced the downforce this year from around 6,300 pounds to about 5,200 pounds, which is quite a bit for a 1600 pound car. This was done to make the cars harder to drive, and more dependent upon driver skill and proper setup instead of so much downforce that the car is easier to drive. This downforce is what leads to the proverbial "able to drive upside down" remarks.
    • Teams
      • In Formula 1, each team must prepare two team cars of their own manufacture. The chassis are built to a "formula", hence the name Formula 1, the highest level.
        • There is a distinct team hierarchy, with Mercedes, Ferrari, and Red Bull being the top tier, and there is a middle tier and lower tier.
        • Outperforming your team-mate is the ticket to moving up to a better team, or winning the championship.
      • All IndyCar teams use a common chassis, and there is no limit to the number of cars on a team. Most are two car teams, but some have more, some less.
        • The top teams are Ganassi, Penske, and Andretti, but it's not unusual for other teams to win or perform well.
    • Engines
      • Formula 1 engines are provided by Mercedes, Honda, Renault, and Ferrari. The turbocharged 1.6 liter V6 engines are part of a power unit, with an Energy Recovery System (ERS) that increases the unit’s overall efficiency by harvesting (and redeploying) heat energy from the exhaust and brakes, adding up to 160 horsepower.
      • Chevrolet and Honda provide turbocharged 2.2 liter V6 engines for IndyCar.
    • Pit Stops
      • IndyCar limits pit stops to 5 crew members over the wall. A full pit stop changes four tires and fills the fuel tank in about 8 seconds.
      • F1 cars can complete a full race without fueling, and can change four tyres in about 3 seconds, due to having about 18 crew members service the car.
    Formula 1 is a world wide racing series at the highest level of automotive engineering, with 21 races this year. With more horsepower, bigger brakes, and less weight, the cars are quicker than Indy cars at the same road/street courses.

    IndyCar is based in Indianapolis, Indiana, and currently races 17 times in the United States and Canada, although they have raced in Brazil and Japan.

    My $0.02

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  9. telemnemonics

    telemnemonics Doctor of Teleocity

    Mar 2, 2010
    Unless on a bet with the cars rolled off the trailers unsanctioned and unadjusted, they would all be dialed in for track conditions, and rules would be the same for both cars, I presume?
    Maybe the F1 teams could change up their cars quicker?
    More power from smaller engines?
    Same displacement rules allowing the F1 more power?
    Or would they simply use a bigger Indy spec engine with a different MAP?
    Does Mercedes have an Indy size F1 spec motor on the shelf?
    Does Honda have a F1 tuned Indy motor option?
    With rule changes the Indy teams could simply un-detune the detuned Indy motors?
    If they all got stuck with the 1.6L then the F1 would have the advantage, unless the Indy teams had a year to hire some new engine people, or simply buy F1 motors.
    Whatever rules were established, both crews would drive them to within an inch of their life. Suggesting that Indycar is a bunch of dummies is kind of, uh, loyal.

    The transmissions are more different than the motors, buy I expect either car could use either transmission.

    My point being that tech is tech and drivers are humans, the difference is the sanctioning bodies and their rules.
  10. swany

    swany Tele-Meister

    Sep 12, 2003
    Evergreen, Colorado
    I have been a fan of F1 racing my whole life, I never miss a race. However it's become a little to regulated. What you end up with is boring racing where you don't get the excitement of the drivers (from different teams) fighting it out.
    It's great to see that Haas was looking good in testing, the only american team, (their engine is Ferrari).

    F1 is still the ultimate and is held as the highest form of motor racing.

    I wish a team that never one a single championship, (Mercedes), and now has one every single one since the hybrid drive train was introduced, (Mercedes), gets some competition, because its a bit boring.

    F1 is truly an event, blasting around the streets of Monaco, or flying through the beautiful sweeping Belgian hills at Spa, there is truly nothing quite like it.
  11. uriah1

    uriah1 Doctor of Teleocity Ad Free Member

    Feb 12, 2011
    Was Steve McQueen driving F1 in LeMans movie.?
  12. telemnemonics

    telemnemonics Doctor of Teleocity

    Mar 2, 2010
    Holy crap @bblumentritt !
    How in hell do F1 cars harvest braking heat to redeploy as engine power?
    That's pretty cool.
    Cool that your son holds some records too!
  13. notmyusualuserid

    notmyusualuserid Tele-Afflicted

    May 3, 2016
    In the South
    Telemarx likes this.
  14. Lupo

    Lupo Tele-Holic

    May 19, 2014
    They use an energy recovery system (ERS) comprehending two motor generator units (MGU): one, (MGU-K) is directly connected to the transmission and recover the kinetic energy (i.e. harvest braking energy, not the heat); the other (MGU-H) recover energy from the turbine, i.e. if the energy is not needed to spin the compressor, is converted in electrical power. Obviously, when acceleration is needed, the MGU-K can be used as electric motor, while the MGU-H can be used to spin the compressor to reduce the turbo-lag.
    telemnemonics likes this.
  15. LarryInTexas

    LarryInTexas Tele-Meister

    Jul 2, 2012
    Yup. The Champ Car guys like Penske, Rahal, Foyt and others probably thought Tony George was a spoiled, whiny brat (they were right.). George resented the way they treated him. He promised to bury them, and he was too ignorant and short-sighted to realize he was killing American open wheel racing in the process.
  16. tery

    tery Poster Extraordinaire Silver Supporter

    Sep 21, 2012
    In the LeMans movie he was driving a Porsche 917K World Manufactures Championship Car .
    I did get to see that Gulf Porsche #2 driven by Pedro Rodriguez win the 24 Hours of Daytona in 1970 .
    dkmw, uriah1 and boris bubbanov like this.
  17. boris bubbanov

    boris bubbanov Telefied Ad Free Member

    Yes, no love for that guy.

    But there's been Intrigue, much of the time in F1 as well. Bernie Ecclestone, anyone?

    Max Mosley, for Goodness Sake?
  18. boris bubbanov

    boris bubbanov Telefied Ad Free Member

    What is so weird is how it seemed like Tony George had carried the day, had beaten his CART oppressors and would then rule in peace.

    But then, the other members of his family stabbed him in the back, and dumped him. As their need for him had passed. Sheesh.
    LarryInTexas likes this.
  19. alathIN

    alathIN Tele-Meister

    Oct 25, 2017
    Indy car has a spec chassis and only two engines, and the engines themselves are heavily spec'd. The teams can tweak their cars, but they're all running the same thing.
    In F1 the teams design and build their own cars, and there are specs for the engines but there is a lot more "clean sheet of paper" engineering that goes into them.

    As far as performance, Indy cars have the edge in top speed but on any track with corners, acceleration, deceleration, F1 cars would eat their lunch.

    Likely to start an argument, but there is little doubt that F1 drivers are the best in the world. Guys who were washed up in F1 like Emerson Fittipaldi came to the US and were immediately top Indy car drivers. More recently, Fernando Alonso came over to run the Indy 500 - his first and only Indy car race ever - and he was immediately competitive.
    Mario Andretti is the most recent Indy driver to have much success in F1, which is going back to 1978, plus - not to take anything away from Mario - he had a revolutionary car that made all the competition obsolete.

    Indy has ventured out of the US, including Japan, Canada, Brazil, and a few European venues if you go back far enough. But it's never been much of a hit outside North America.
    F1 has had US races on and off throughout the years. The road course at Indy was originally the site of an F1 race. Watkins Glen and Long Beach were the sites of some classic F1 races. But F1 has never really hit it big in the US. F1 races are preposterously expensive to put on, and US fans don't always resonate to a bunch of "foreign-sounding" names.

    In the 1970s and 80s I followed F1 closely, but lately it's gotten very parade-ish. With the teams developing their own cars, it's a very big money proposition to compete so it's that many fewer competitive teams and even the big-money teams can have a really bad season if they make a bad move in their offseason design/development phase. Most years, there is one dominant team that finishes 1-2 at almost every race.

    Also, I have a theory that the most interesting auto racing happens when the cars are relatively under-powered compared to their tire patch area. You give the drivers a lot of grip, and they will drive harder and do more interesting things. Give them tons of power without much grip, and it all becomes about precision, with very little room for taking an alternate line. IndyCar is relatively boring for engineers and tech heads, but the fact that a "second tier" team can still be competitive and the cars can be driven hard makes it a lot more entertaining to watch.
  20. jhundt

    jhundt Doctor of Teleocity

    Mar 23, 2003
    I agree that it would be nice to see some competition. But just for the record: Mercedes won the GP championship in 1935, 1937, and 1938 with Caracciola at the wheel, and in 1954 and 1955 with Fangio driving. That was before they called it F1, though.
    Last edited: Mar 12, 2018
    swany likes this.
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