Glad to be back, Keto nearly killed me...

Discussion in 'Bad Dog Cafe' started by DrPepper, Mar 13, 2019.

  1. RocknRollShakeUp

    RocknRollShakeUp Tele-Meister

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    For the sake of a balanced conversation here is a take from a pro Keto diet family practice physician.

    I try to eat low carb, focusing on nutritionally dense foods including pasture raised animal products that have a healthy free fatty acid profile and no hormones and antibiotics. I also do intermittent fasting. I try to eliminate refined flour and corn products as much as I can. Watch out for plant based foods that are high in anti nutrients (lectins, phytic acid, oxalates, etc), and for plant foods that you may actually be allergic to, e.g. night shades, et.al.

     
    Last edited: Mar 15, 2019
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  2. D_W_PGH

    D_W_PGH Friend of Leo's

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    I hope you do well. I hope we all do. I think that there are a lot of people following butter bob's advice, etc, who do well, and I'm guessing that your issues were probably in place before keto (or people would be falling over left and right - there are lots of folks who probably have CHF who don't know it until they get to issues like fluid build up, etc - but as was said earlier here, if I had CHF, i probably wouldn't have done the normal hi-sat fat keto like you did without talking to a physician. I have done it for about a combined year, and I imagine that I'm filling up with fat - but I think it's my imagination as my numbers don't change much. when you're on it, and you get a short chest pain that's transient, you imagine that it's a blockage. When you're not on it and you get a short chest pain, you imagine it's a transient pain. If you walk somewhere while you're on it and you think you're more short of breath than normal, you imagine it's blockage. When you're eating sprouts and fruit, you imagine you just probably need more exercise.

    The unfortunate truth is that some folks will get heart disease and have an event, no matter what they eat. Even pescavegetarians, who seem to have the best outcome overall.

    I'm starting another round of keto today because I feel better on it than WFPB, but in an attempt to game my numbers like the study I linked, I'm going to be more strict just for peace of mind, and keep the fats balanced toward healthy fats. I haven't really gained much weight since the last keto tour of duty (some people gain a lot between), but I've probably gained about 5 or 8 pounds over 9 months and I feel like it's a good time to take another chunk out of the part of my body that doesn't need to be part of my body. and I'm getting tired of the ups and downs and afternoon slump that I get on all carbs.

    We should all hold our own feet to the fire, but not someone else's.

    I was listening to am radio the other night, and they had some guy on who is in his late 50s. he's had heart attacks and now he's learned to recognize what's going on before he gets heart attacks (like getting tired doing routine things) and said that sometimes he eats well between stents and sometimes he doesn't. He's just very unlucky that no matter what he seems to do "he clogs up".

    My uncle dale seemed like he never did. Not sure what killed him at 99 as he's my great uncle and not local. Could've been a stroke or heart attack!

    There was plenty of heart disease, etc, back when people ate more whole foods. Perhaps less than now, but no clue how much of that is obesity related, the fact that we live longer, etc. There are a lot of folks who grew up in the south eating stuff like fatback (that's not common here) and I can't imagine the long term outcome of that is great. But, I could very well be long.

    I'm excited to see what we learn over the next several decades.

    (i'd imagine butter bob is fine. Last i recall, he got a coronary calcium score and after a life of being obese, I think he expected that he'd have a score of zero because of some magic from going keto and dropping the weight. He had a score that was probably typical for the average person his age, and was disappointed, but he was by no means on the doorstep of a big event statistically. I think more likely, he ran out of video ideas and youtube changed their ad structure and made it not worth his while).
     
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  3. D_W_PGH

    D_W_PGH Friend of Leo's

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    My grandfather was the overworking nut that I mentioned above, and grandma and consequently my mom kept us on limited sugar other than designated desserts, which you didn't get with every meal. He was tubby - about 5'10" and 230 pounds. He carried his weight well, though, because he worked like a nut. But there are two things I've never seen anyone do:
    * outwork him
    * out eat him for speed

    He may not have eaten much dessert, but he could total a sandwich plate.
     
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  4. DrPepper

    DrPepper Tele-Holic

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    I'm guilty of using "click bait"....
     
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  5. PCollen

    PCollen Friend of Leo's

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    I just had 1/2 Subway Spicy Italian sandwich for lunch, and I feel GREAT !
     
  6. WetBandit

    WetBandit Friend of Leo's

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    I've tried telling people on here before about my Keto experience...

    I did keto to reverse a very slight case of Non alcoholic fatty liver....

    It worked for that...

    But for a long term diet, its downright dangerous!!

    It tricks both your liver and your pancreas and messes up their extremely important relationship with one another.

    Your body stops being able to recognize sugar and so your pancreas doesn't function properly.

    You need sugar for your brain to work...

    Of course I got met with heavy resistance when I said it before.

    Balance is the key to a good healthy diet, not starving or robbing your body of certain things... that's foolish and dangerous, but can be useful in short bursts to help other medical issues such as fatty liver.

    I'm no medical expert or health expert, but I'm just speaking from personal experience... at the end of my 4 months of Keto I felt like a corpse and looked like one as well.

    Beware!!

    Keto is basically renamed/rebranded Atkins from the 90s... it's not new and is as unhealthy as it always was.

    Sure, you will lose weight (how can that be bad right?) But you are also compromising the rest of your system.

    Rant over...
     
  7. WetBandit

    WetBandit Friend of Leo's

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    Keto is dangerous over long periods... theres no question about it.... its not even an argument.

    It's a renamed/re-marketed Atkins diet from the 90s...
     
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  8. D_W_PGH

    D_W_PGH Friend of Leo's

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    That's actually inaccurate. Atkins and keto are two different things.

    Epileptics used to be on the keto diet for life, and there are a lot of diabetics who are now, too.

    There does seem to be different reactions for different people. One of those being total cholesterol (not necessarily a great indicator of CV risk), and one being ratio (now being linked as far more reliable in determining CV risk than total cholesterol) - if too much saturated fat.

    Or, in short, if you go on keto and your total cholesterol gets worse and so does your ratio, that could be bad. If total goes up but ratio is unchanged, probably not, and if total goes up and ratio improves, you're probably in an improved situation.

    (if you read the study I posted earlier - it's not long - if you balance your fats toward unsaturated instead of saturated, it's possible that it may be a life extending diet - better for you than a moderation diet. It's not apparent that it's bad from any of the markers used).

    From the practical side, being 200 pounds and cycling on and off of keto to stay there (and being reasonable between cycles) is probably healthier than not doing keto and being 250 pounds.

    And the old adage of it being unhealthy to do anything other than keeping a constant weight may also not be accurate, as it's starting to appear that cycles of deficit might be beneficial in controlling or preventing tumor growth, and may result in greater longevity.

    It's worth saying "I don't really know what's bad and what's not, but I'd like to see a structured study that's properly done to see what the conclusion might be".

    (atkins doesn't restrict protein - keto does, simply because your body will burn protein for energy before fat and it prevents the whole point of the keto diet - making ketones to convert fat to fuel that your brain can use).
     
    Last edited: Mar 15, 2019
  9. D_W_PGH

    D_W_PGH Friend of Leo's

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    No, you need sugar or ketones. That's the whole point.

    You can't take atkins diet information and infer something about keto, just like you can't take pescavegetarian and claim to know how vegans will turn out.

    The only real data that I've seen suggests that cognitive development on keto is not good (as in, it's not a diet for kids). Cognition for adults is fine.
     
  10. jkingma

    jkingma Super Moderator Staff Member

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    Fad diets don't work over the long term.

    If you want to lose weight and get healthy, eat less and move more. It's that simple.
     
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  11. Geoff738

    Geoff738 Poster Extraordinaire

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    I don’t think it’s that simple.

    Less of what? The science of this stuff is amazingly undeveloped. Given how crucial diet is to us - we all gotta eat, it really is amazing how little is known about what the optimal diet might be. And why we keep getting “fad” diets.

    I don’t disagree about move more in general, but hefting weights at the gym use up very little calories in the grand scheme of things, for example. Lots of other benefits, but burning lots of calories isn’t really one of them.

    A few years ago I read a bunch of stuff on this like The Big Fat Surprise and the Taubes book. It’s all pretty much seeped out of my brain, but, it isn’t as simple as limiting calories and getting more exercise. The science just doesn’t support that, at least as presented in the books I mentioned.

    Cheers,
    Geoff
     
  12. jkingma

    jkingma Super Moderator Staff Member

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    I haven't really changed what I eat. I still have beer and burgers. But I cut way back. And I eat more salads and green stuff... which i like anyway.

    And I walk a lot more than I used to. I've lost a lot of excess baggage and I feel much better. My doc says my cholesterol and sugar are all very good and to keep doing what I'm doing. I don't feel like I'm on a diet but it seems like I am based on results.
     
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  13. D_W_PGH

    D_W_PGH Friend of Leo's

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    I think the data coming in suggests that the first part is important, the last part isn't.

    You need to eat less.

    At least that's what my doc tells me. It's good to move more, of course, but it's a small part of the equation compared to diet.

    Keto is a lifestyle change if someone does it correctly (same with all low carbohydrate or WFPB - which I don't think is any more sustainable than keto over the long term, but is great if you can stick to it).

    For those of us who have used keto effectively, the reason it works is because it's easy as a lifestyle change. WFPB is an exclusion diet. So is Keto. So is everything other than moderation.

    My pdoc has patients who are voracious exercisers but also enjoy life when not exercising. He said that they come in and are often dumbfounded that they're not losing weight, but the reason is simple. The average person probably will not total more than 600 calories per day in exercise on a daily average (so if you're exercising 5 days a week, it needs to be 7/5 times 600).

    If you have bad eating habits, 600 calories are very easy to find without going hungry. Exclusion diets generally get you past that, but they have to be tolerable. I couldn't do a low fat exclusion diet because I feel light headed, have terrible gas due to complex carb intolerance, and I'm always hungry. It also doesn't take out easy carbs which don't make me feel bad in the short term.

    I can do keto indefinitely. The only thing submarining it is my spouse, who doesn't like it because she thinks I should just eat the portions she does.

    (in terms of fads, I've got older relatives who as they get older do this......cut back to one or two meals per day. They do it out of ease, and out of not wanting to get fat. The first reaction to that is that it's a fad - termed intermittent fasting now - and that you can't do it. )
     
  14. WetBandit

    WetBandit Friend of Leo's

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    I did a strait Keto diet as recommended by 2 physicians to help expedite the reversal of a small amount of fat build up in my liver...

    I'm 6'3 221lbs.... that's not too shabby imo...

    They also told me to not undergo that diet for more than 6 months as it's not healthy long term.

    And the only difference between Keto and Atkins is Atkins promotes unlimited amounts of protein and Keto doesn't...

    That is it... the single solitary difference.

    I'm sorry, but this same diet or whatever incarnation/iteration and by whatever name it's going by at the time.... with whatever slight variances in structure....

    It's a FAD/ Trend

    Wait until it nearly kills you or someone you care about and then tell me what you think about it.
     
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  15. Geoff738

    Geoff738 Poster Extraordinaire

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    Good for you.

    Eating less/ counting calories doesn’t work long term for a lot of people. A good friend has lost 100 lbs or more over the last year and a half or so just by doing this and I ve lost about 10 lbs since the hols and I hope that continues.

    So, it can work. It just often doesn’t long term for a lot of people. I gained close to 40 lbs last year after going on new meds that both made me hungrier and slowed my metabolism. Still on them but for now am eating less and snacking on fruits when I do snack. Still sugars, but hopefully healthier than junk food.

    Cheers,
    Geoff
     
  16. D_W_PGH

    D_W_PGH Friend of Leo's

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    You do realize that the "small single difference" you're talking about is a very big difference. One method produces ketones (which your brain can operate fine on), the other doesn't.

    I have no idea what study they were looking at unless they're assuming you couldn't stay on ketosis. There are scads of diabetics on keto diets indefinitely.

    You may have noticed that the study that I posted (which was from the nih site, not a blog) noted nothing but positive effects for 24 weeks (6 months). Your docs may have suggested 6 months only because there's no study showing anything longer, but there's certainly no data to suggest that epileptics ever stuck to that, and nothing in the study that i linked that would suggest the participants should stop.

    I don't know that much about the original atkins because it would involve taking in a bunch of nitrites more or less and that would be a migraine no no. I don't have migraine problems on keto. Keto is cheaper, too.

    Harvard med says pretty much the same thing - no long term study data (the study I linked is the longest I've found).

    I think you could do a little more reading on your own to find out why the doctors told you what they told you, and then ask them. You might learn something.
     
  17. jkingma

    jkingma Super Moderator Staff Member

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    I'm actually not counting calories. I just don't "eat until I'm full" anymore. A few years ago there was no such thing as leftovers in our house. Now there is. ;)
     
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  18. TeleFunk Man

    TeleFunk Man Tele-Afflicted

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    Keto needs to be done right. If you don't do it right it won't work. Keto is not a fad, it's more than just a diet, it's more like a lifestyle. It means low carbs (under 50 grams a day), moderate protein and high "healthy" fat. Focus on whole foods, and healthy fats like avocados, olive oil, grass-fed butter, nuts, fresh-caught bacon, free-range eggs, cheese. Use oilive oil, coconut oil and avocado oil. Avoid canola, soy oils. As for meats, go for grass-fed beef, nitrate-free bacon and grass-fed chicken. Eat a large salad daily (lettuce, greens, spinach, tomatoes, olives, green onions, radish) and veggies like asparagus, broccoli, cauliflower. Drink lots of water with lemon juice, eat berries. And take a vitamin B and electrolytes supplement daily for the first couple of months.

    The pounds will drop off and you'll feel amazing.
     
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  19. Geoff738

    Geoff738 Poster Extraordinaire

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    Here’s Taubes briefly questioning the calories in, calories out theory.

    https://www.nytimes.com/2012/07/01/opinion/sunday/what-really-makes-us-fat.html

    He has books if anybody wants to delve further. They are not without their critics though that’s for sure.

    Cheers,
    Geoff
     
  20. TeleFunk Man

    TeleFunk Man Tele-Afflicted

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    No offence, but is false.

    Keto is very safe long term. There are people that have been on it for decades. The opposite is true, consuming high carbs and processed foods will eventually kill you.

    Atkins and Keto are completely different. Bottom line for keto is no more than 50 grams of carbs per day, moderate protein and high "healthy" fats, after a few weeks you transition into ketosis - this is a biological transformation and is 100% natural state where your body burns fat as a source of energy.



     
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