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Discussion in 'Bad Dog Cafe' started by DrPepper, Mar 13, 2019.
I'm getting hungry.
It's great if it works for you, and I do realize the discipline is hard for many.
When things were not going well and I tried things discussed here I also kicked off an endocrine problem. In the care of physicians they brought up how they're knowing more such as microbiome, and importance of fiber and raw fruits and vegetables. Add the benefits of exercise. Fats and alcohol increase your chance of pancreatitis that can kill you and I learned that while near dead and suffering. Eating a well rounded diet, modest proportions, and exercise is the best bet for most people if they will or can do it. I've said it here before. It took time but was very achievable and at times very enjoyable.
The experts who cared for me then and my current health care provider pointed out that well rounded diet isn't something that requires the supervision for most people the way some diets do. I had an extended period of regular bloodwork. I watched common sense eating and exercise eliminate the heart attack risk, manage the pancreas problems, pre-diabetes symptoms, and get all of the bloodwork normal.
I'm sure I'd never have had those problems if I did the common sense (you don't seem to like well rounded) eating and exercise all along. I was a fat and non-athletic kid, turned it around in college, slipped for a bit and now can't imagine being 60 years old if I carried the extra weight and didn't work at agility.
It's my sincere hope that DrPepper is on the mend and all will get better. Same for everyone fighting some problems or at risk. Good luck to anyone working at their health.
Good to hear you're doing better!
I started eating whole food plant based foods three years ago. One of the best decisions I've ever made. Lost a lot of weight and am healthier than I've been in many years, according to my doctor.
Right, the Western obsession with sugar soda, simple carb and refined sugar based snacks eaten all day and night, and the lowest possible quality foods being consumed for comfort while sitting on the couch; give carbs a bad name.
Then the fact that no carb diets starve the body for fuel forcing it to consume itself for energy seems to confirm the idea that carbs are bad.
But the body needs carbs to run on, so after one loses all their fat, if they keep eating a no carbs diet they lose muscle mass as well, and the occupants of these starved bodies seem to look like mummies or zombies or holocaust victims, while thinking they look great.
I find it alarming and deeply disturbing when I see a friend who's gone deep into these diets, because they really look like the dying.
I guess because I've watched friends die of AIDS and also seen friends die of anorexia.
Seriously, the eyes look sunken in to gaunt bony cheeks when one goes wild on the thin craze.
Most don't take it this far, but an awful lot do seem to go that way, and it is not IMO healthy to get that thin.
Anyhow, carbs are not unhealthy, carbs are needed.
It's the junk food that's unhealthy.
And it's the effect of starving the body for the carbs it needs that makes those diets so fast. That speed is actually harmful, and at the same time it's the big selling point, where long term healthy eating seems so hard because it takes so long.
The durn time is gonna pass either way, and long term healthy habits seem to stick better than short term extreme diets.
For medical needs and under medical supervision though, extreme dieting is a medical procedure that fixes emergency medical problems.
Using it for spring swimsuit prep might not be considered a medical need!
The doctors I follow now are: John McDougall, T Colin Campbell, Caudwell Esselstyn, and Michael Greger....
My brother was over for lunch last sunday. He is on keto ( he did them all) said he lost 20 pounds, I told him, its the 10th time you lose 20 pounds
Not familiar with those names.
Are they Doctor's of Teleocity?
Exactly, the western diet is greed based in many aspects...what the Dairy Council gets away with
ln our public schools is criminal...
I don't have any underlying health problems, but I was overweight, so about two years ago, when my wife's A1C was getting to that pre-diabetic count, we went on a low-carb (but not keto) way of eating. We did it simply - reducing our intake of carbs to no more than 34-50 grams per MEAL (NOT per day!!!) The nutritionist my wife went to also suggested trying to structure meals so that vegetables make up about 50% of what's on your plate by volume. This has been effective for us - I lost about 45 pounds and have kept it off through simply maintaining this regime and getting exercise. In addition, my cholesterol has not been above 165 during these two years (and I get it measured frequently because where I donate platelets they do a routine total cholesterol check with each donation) and my HDL/LDL ratio is phenomenal, and all my other bloodwork numbers are well into the healthy zone.
Obviously, everybody's metabolism and overall health is different, and nothing is going to work for 100% of people, but if you are comfortable with giving up rice, pasta, and potatoes, this seems to be a non-drastic way to fairly easily shed some pounds.
Haven't seen a school lunch in a few decades but I hear ketchup is a vegetable!
I'm on a Beer diet since 40 years and i feel great.
A co-worker just took me to a hole-in-the-wall Spanish place. I just gulped down a huge plate of yellow rice, quarter chicken, and veggies for $7. Bad idea.
And now they're having a Pie Day celebration. Not good.
Love that meal, not many Spanish places in Maine though so it's been a while...
Well rounded is sort of a nebulous term. i don't like things that don't produce results, though, so feeding into that - that's correct. I'm not really a list follower, so narrowing the universe is easier for me. If any of my indicators were worse or I felt worse, then I'd modify. Since my total cholesterol was slightly higher last time, I'm getting ready to do another round and will replace a lot of the fats with plant fats that are less saturated and see how it goes.
The kicker is that every time I do the keto, it works. I also feel better on it, so I'm not inclined to put other constraints on the situation.
Separate side story about my genetic background - we don't get diabetes (even though I'd certainly have it if we were predisposed - not due to weight, but due to sugar intake), none of us are obese in the modern sense (common to be 30-40 pounds overweight) like TV show fat. Heart disease seems to run in the family after 80.
I had a relative (This is just anecdotal talk) who was a school administrator, PhD and went further than my grandfather and other relatives (who either farmed or went to a four year college and got a rank and file job). My great uncle died about ten years ago at the age of 99. You remember all of the hyper talk about eating cholesterol in the 1990s? That uncle heeded none of it and every day of his life woke up and ate eggs and bacon - common thing back then was bacon first, then cook the eggs in the grease to flavor the eggs. We were sure that death would come early from him - long before the whole cholesterol scare. He outlived his other brothers by an average of 15 years.
Since he had a phD, he thought he was smarter than all of us (maybe he was). His cognition was great all the way to age 99, but that may have nothing to do with the fat intake. The other brothers became senile, but not horribly so and not until their 80s (probably dementia). This uncle may have had good cognition just because he used his brain more, or by luck of the draw.
I was worried for him as a kid because my mother told us he was clogging his arteries (sounds good, right, think of all of that fat hardening in arteries - sometimes it's an old wives tale).
Keto doesn't seem to have much of an effect on my bloodwork, minor negative, but I'd like to beat even that by switching fats over to something more boring. the doctor doesn't like it that much, but he can't argue with the results, so he doesn't. He also wishes I could just do moderation. In the last 5 years, he's stopped with the exercise thing because the more data comes out, the more it seems to be true that exercise has fairly little effect on weight unless you do a whole lot of it. I've got no interest in 6 hours of cardio exercise per week. If that would burn 3000 calories, I can find those calories in reduced consumption more easily, and then not have the ravenous appetite that appears the next morning when I'm exercising.
I think it's important to think about an analyze what you do, and hold your own feet to the fire on it. It's less important to be that worried about what other people are doing. If you're offering advice to someone else, it should be caveated and precise, and spoken as clearly and accurately as you can.
Is it that important, am I taking it too seriously? I don't know, I think it's important. I don't think other folks will think it's that important. Next post, why I don't just agree that the old adage (smaller meals, more, lower fat) is necessarily universally the best for everyone (aside from the evidence that it's been known for a long time and a lot of people are 30-40 pounds overweight like me and kind of holding there, whereas 50 years ago, I probably would've been 5 pounds overweight).
there are lots of doctors not only prescribing keto and keto centric diets, but many who are on the diets as well. Do so more reading about it. Like anything, there are folks who will have adverse effects just from the change and there are folks who will improperly do the regime and have poor effects. It is not 'new' but it is counter to the traditional 'food pyramid' dogma that was foisted on us for years (and now mostly discredited.)
I don't get the connection you are making to AIDS nor anorexia at all... Keto is mostly beneficial for people who would be categorized as obese or morbidly obese and who have diets that have way too much sugar and way too many carbs.... I'd note that keto is not a no carb diet.. it simply limits them. The science behind it is as good or better than what folks have used in the past.
Lots of paths to heaven, what we forget is that it is in the sky, so, it is a steep climb no matter which one you take.
The NIH study on 24 weeks on keto, and why being precise is important:
From this article.
The weight and body mass index of the patients decreased significantly (P<0.0001). The level of total cholesterol decreased from week 1 to week 24. HDL cholesterol levels significantly increased, whereas LDL cholesterol levels significantly decreased after treatment. The level of triglycerides decreased significantly following 24 weeks of treatment. The level of blood glucose significantly decreased. The changes in the level of urea and creatinine were not statistically significant.
The present study shows the beneficial effects of a long-term ketogenic diet. It significantly reduced the body weight and body mass index of the patients. Furthermore, it decreased the level of triglycerides, LDL cholesterol and blood glucose, and increased the level of HDL cholesterol. Administering a ketogenic diet for a relatively longer period of time did not produce any significant side effects in the patients. Therefore, the present study confirms that it is safe to use a ketogenic diet for a longer period of time than previously demonstrated.
There's a whole lot in that study, but you'll find that the changes in cholesterol were very significant, these people are "generally fatter than me" to start, so maybe I'll get somewhat less benefit.
they're able to eat protein and greens/low calorie density vegetables (which I also like, because they don't make you hungry later), and ...well, I like all of the results.
Was there a control group for low fat diet? No, they couldn't find volunteers, but those were compared in other studies:
In the present study, a control population on a low fat diet was not included due to the difficulties in recruiting subjects for a control group. However, several studies (63,64) with appropriate control groups that compared the effect of a low fat diet with a low carbohydrate ketogenic diet have recently been published. In this regard, these two recent studies are comparable with the present study. Brehm et al (23) showed that obese women on a low carbohydrate ketogenic diet lost 8.5 kg over six months compared with 4.2 kg lost by those in the low fat diet group (P<0.001). Twenty-two subjects from the low carbohydrate ketogenic diet and 20 subjects from the low fat diet completed the study, with both groups reducing their energy intake by approximately 450 kcal from the baseline level. In another study performed in 132 severely obese subjects for six months (24), there was greater weight loss in the low carbohydrate ketogenic diet group than in the low fat diet group (5.8 kg versus 1.9 kg, P=0.002). Both of these studies support the findings presented in the present paper.
Other interesting stuff (when I'm bad, I'm bad with sugar and carbs)
It is now evident that high carbohydrate diets increase fasting plasma triglyceride concentrations (47–51) and decrease HDL cholesterol concentrations (52–55). These changes are associated with enhanced atherogenesis (55). However, it has been shown that short-term ketogenic diets improve the lipid disorders that are characteristic of atherogenic dyslipidemia (56). It has also been found that sugary drinks decreased blood levels of vitamin E, thus reducing the amount of antioxidants in the body. It has been proven, beyond a doubt, that disrupting the oxidant-antioxidant status of the cell will lead to various diseases of the body (57).
And the kicker for all of this, and why people who go keto may not get the same results on their blood work:
To determine the effects of a 24-week ketogenic diet (consisting of 30 g carbohydrate, 1 g/kg body weight protein, 20% saturated fat, and 80% polyunsaturated and monounsaturated fat) in obese patients.
All 83 subjects received the ketogenic diet consisting of 20 g to 30 g of carbohydrate in the form of green vegetables and salad, and 80 g to 100 g of protein in the form of meat, fish, fowl, eggs, shellfish and cheese. Polyunsaturated and monounsaturated fats were also included in the diet. Twelve weeks later, an additional 20 g of carbohydrate were added to the meal of the patients to total 40 g to 50 g of carbohydrate. Micronutrients (vitamins and minerals) were given to each subject in the form of one capsule per day (Table 2).
I don't think there are many people doing the ketogenic diet who are on 20 percent unsaturated fat and 20% saturated. It's probably closer to the opposite.
I'd bet people who want to peddle the keto diet to everyone would exclude that, but it's important. I found slightly worse blood results in total being unrestricted and eating a bunch of coconut oil and animal fat. I don't know if it would've amounted to anything, but i'm looking more for the results in this study.
Note the difference in weight loss from the moderation type diet vs. keto. It's difficult to make a statement that moderation is better than this unless adherence to it is better for a person than this. I tend to think that things like lots of fruit, etc, aren't that healthy for us, while lots of higher fiber density lower calorie density vegetables are good for us.
Replacing sugar with whole grain for me is out of the question. I tried that for a month once, but have complex carb resistance and the effect is hair curling for anyone else around. I heard long ago that it takes two weeks to get enzymes up to speed if you haven't had a certain food group for a while. I tried for a month and then my wife gave up. It was physically uncomfortable at work, too, but fun for the kids in a circus kind of way. Greatest show on earth.
As a "bad parent" (my wife handles these sorts of things), I just looked at my 9 year old daughters lunch menu for the first time last week. The first day of the menu was mini corn dog dippers. It didn't get a whole lot better than that. Pizza is now pizza bites, and not sure, but maybe still made of the same paraffin wax-like cheese that we had when I was a kid, and the sauce that's orange instead of red. And the old standby chicken patty that I used to hammer is now gone. Lots of branded food (tostitos this or that mexican theme) that we never had.
The food looks really tasty, but not as tasty as the school dietician
I'm sure that made him feel better about trying.
his appropriate comeback is "think how fat I'd be without it".