For aircraft enthusiasts: From Condor to Mule, the BF-109

Discussion in 'Bad Dog Cafe' started by Blazer, Apr 28, 2019.

  1. zipseattle

    zipseattle Tele-Meister

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    You said, "This forum is an oasis of civility in an often foul-spirited internet." And yet you attack the OP and those who have another viewpoint with phrases like:

    "...people keep stooping to this filth..."
    "...I expect people on this forum to have some dignity..."
    "...for whatever sick reason, one must swoon..."
    "...for whatever twisted reason, you feel you need to..."

    You alone are responsible for the negative turn this thread has taken.

    I'm sure everyone on this wonderful forum is horrified and repulsed by the evils of **** germany, and the recent terrorism. But it is also quite reasonable to assume that the people posting on this thread had no, or have no intent to glorify the ****'s or terrorism when talking about airplanes.

    You can unleash your rage at evil towards people who had nothing to do with that evil,...or not. It's up to you...
     
    Last edited: Apr 29, 2019
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  2. RoscoeElegante

    RoscoeElegante Friend of Leo's

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    You swoon over tools of pure cruelty, tools designed to inflict cruelty on innocent people as efficiently as possible, and you say I'm the one making this negative? The swastika is negative. Posting it glibly on a guitar/music site, especially on a day when once again swastika-users murder innocent people, while at prayer no less, is pretty damn disgusting, yes.

    People who are truly repulsed by **** Germany, as you now piously claim to be, don't obsess over **** technology. They see the evil intent in the design, see the design as STAINED by its designers' intent. You keep ducking the issue: would a thread about the cool devices that child torturers use be okay?

    Not sure either why you think I need to know that no one here is advocating the Nazis outrightly. Never said that, or thought that. Or why I need to be told that yes, my view is up to me. It's also a pretty damn minimally moral view of the issue. This is Ethics 101, Sanity ABC. With all the ingenious aeronautical and other technology in the world, obsessing over stuff designed to and very good at inflicting vast cruelty on....

    But what's the point, if people just wanna rationalize their disturbing obsessions?
     
  3. zipseattle

    zipseattle Tele-Meister

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    With all due respect, you know nothing about me or what I "swoon" over. I invite you to review this thread - you'll note that I made no comments at all regarding the "tools of cruelty". The only theme I've commented on is your choice to jump in to a thread and attack the people who've posted. Good luck to you.
     
  4. fraser

    fraser Tele-Holic

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    my Favourite plane among many awesome planes.
    As a child the 109 fueled my dreams.

    Its cultural I know, but whatever.

    Looking up my rather rare last name,
    I can see hundreds of my relatives listed as war dead.
    On both sides.
    That’d be why my last name is rare.

    The insignia doesn’t bother me, why should it bother anyone else.
    It’s history.
     
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  5. fraser

    fraser Tele-Holic

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    Roscoe, remind us, how many missions did you fly in spitfires to save the world from evil emblems?
     
  6. Mad Kiwi

    Mad Kiwi Friend of Leo's

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    Sorry but your point of view is sel oriented. Every race in the world has a symbol or emblem that has historical validation to not like or hate as you do. Does that mean no one can discuss anything that ever has a flag, symbol or associated identification?

    Plainly not, so how about hopping out of this thread that upsets you like any sensible person might and leave us to enjoy the aircraft that is the focus?

    The OP in this case loves aircraft and provides us with many different models to learn about. Commercial, military and so on.

    Otherwise your atitude and issues will selfishly cause a problem for the rest of us.

    Oh and welcome to the ignore list, perhaps you could utilise this list yourself for threads and posters that upset you so? (once again rhetorical, no need to answer).
     
  7. Guitarteach

    Guitarteach Poster Extraordinaire

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    Confronting evil means being able to look it straight in the eye - together, side by side.

    History is (or should be) a lesson we don’t skip out of.

    I am truly and immensely sorry about what has happened in your community roscoe. I recognise that an environment is being created where it could all happen again, so you are right to remind us of the symbol and the vital conversation that demands today. That said, I really don’t think anyone had a motive here other than an interest in aircraft and technology in mind in when posting or responding to this thread. I simply lurk the aircraft threads as aerospace engineering (non military hopefully) is a big part of my current work. The insights shared on how designs evolve over time and the errors and judgments engineers make, are educational.

    I can appreciate the engineering and innovation history while thoroughly abhorring the application. You have though reminded me at least, that certain symbols carry other meanings for some communities too and I appreciate the reminder that we have to be clear what is being looked at when looking at history. I would say the technologies of hate today have Twitter and Facebook logos on them. I don’t think they have a TDPRI logo... YET. The big social media platforms should consult with the mods here. We all bring our own stories and histories here, respectful conversation will allow us all to grow and learn together. I saw no malice in the OP, just education.

    I have a family history I cannot remove and must live with. My father was part of a team that designed an aircraft in the cold heart of a Cold War to penetrate deep into enemy territory at supersonic speeds, at near tree top height, to deliver nuclear warheads onto cities full of innocent people and other strategic targets. It seems unthinkable that the gentle, kind old man I know could be part of such a thing but the enemy at the time was planning the same against us and his family. In the end it led almost directly to his work on Concorde and other civilian applications.

    The engineering development story is a different, parallel story to the war role of the technology but unfortunately, one invariably drives the other and sadly the na**s were pretty innovative as well as evil. The foundations of their downfall were also hinted at in the OP. They were ultimately beaten because better people stood together against them. We can learn from that too.
     
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  8. Blazer

    Blazer Doctor of Teleocity

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    First of all. Where in my OP do I state that I agree with all that **** Germany stood for?

    I have been doing threads on the "For aircraft enthusiasts" moniker for years and they run the gauntlet:
    - 50 years of the Boeing 737
    - The F-14 Tomcat
    - The history of the Blue Angels
    - Fokker's final single engine fighter
    - 50 years of the Bell UH-1 Iroquois "Huey"

    In all of those I made no effort to show it from one side, I always remained objective. In the F-14 Tomcat thread I mentioned how the number one ace of that plane is Iranian. I never mentioned if I agree with what the Ayatollah's reign stands for.

    In my history of the eighth air force, I mentioned how many young men died during the raids because of the leader ship unwilling to listen to what their pilots told them about their tactics not working. There were more deaths in the eighth air force than in the US Marine corp during the second world war. But never in that thread do I say I agree with all the civilian deaths that the eighth caused during raids on German cities.

    My intention of these threads is to tell people the stories of planes, NOT to start a debate about if everybody agrees on what those planes were used for.

    And err...
    [​IMG]
    The Messerschmitt 109 was flown by Israel too, stars of David where Swastikas once sat.
     
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  9. Bob Womack

    Bob Womack Tele-Holic

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    Nice review! I've got a flying 109G living down the road from me. Well, from the firewall forward it is a G with the Daimler engine and all. From the Firewall back it is a Buchon retrofitted back to G spec by Meyer Motors in Germany. Of course, the Buchon was simply a license-built 109G...

    [​IMG]

    I listened to a podcast from the fellow who gave the plane its FAA checkout and trained the local pilots after it arrive in this country, Rick Volker. Rick had an interesting take on the various marks of BF109. He feels that the Emil is a pleasant, straightforward fighter plane to fly but the performance upgrades and up-rated engine transformed the G into something else entirely. With its up-rated engine, the torque and prop wash render the tiny tail control surfaces ineffective until she is in the air. In fact, the plane often takes a jog to one side on the takeoff roll and at that point the tail doesn't have the bite to correct it. If the pilot attempts to correct the jog with the pedals a main mount will often dig in, causing a high speed ground loop that crashes the plane and kills the pilot. In fact, German fighter fields often had a pile of aluminum on one side three-quarters of the way down where new pilots had tried to fight the plane back on course. An aerobatic performer of many years who work with the Sukhoi SU-26 aerobatic plane (basically an incredibly powerful engine with a tiny plane attached), Rick was invited to fly many of the WWII fighter types for a museum and eventually became an instructor pilot for WWII fighter types. He suggests that you just give the plane its head without attempting to correct the direction. You also can't pull her off the deck with the stick. After the tail comes up she'll hop a few times (you see this in the Battle of Britain movie) and pull herself off the deck in her own darn time. Volker describes the plane as possessing a perpetual, underlying feeling of menace, as if it would like nothing better than to kill the pilot and it would need no more than a second or two of distraction to do so. He said fighter pilots often have feelings of affection for their plane but that was absent from the original pilots of the Gustav that he'd met. When they stepped out of the cockpit for the last time the feeling seemed to be more along the line of, "Fine. Let someone else handle this beast." More HERE. (Podcast playback is on the black bar under the picture on the page.) It's a great discussion of the Emil and Gustav.

    So, the Gustav is another breed entirely.

    Bob
     
    Last edited: Apr 29, 2019
  10. brogh

    brogh Assistant Admin Staff Member

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    oh, well......

    whoever here was around a bit has probably bumped in one of these threads that @Blazer writes, with great passion and enthusiasm, i'm not to give a history lesson to anyone.. however.... the swastika was a symbol well before the Reich adopted it, it has become a representation of something else after the 30's, Germany was at the time one of (if not ) the most technologically advanced countries at that time, which led to tons of innovation in aircraft technology at the time was the advanced field were all the top tech got applied.

    The fascination, and interest in these technologies is something i understand it to be interesting, not only to me but to other people too, i watched the B24 liberator build of another thread with great interest the other day, wasn't that a "worst" than the bf109 ? i think it is, the bf109 as a fighter it might be used to defend, where a bomber has really not that option, the only purpose is to "flatten the land" which imho is really not a defensive act ... however that was bearing another logo so that' wasn't a problem ?.... ( don't over elaborate here ... )

    that said ...

    @RoscoeElegante, i understand the tragedies, and i'm sorry that your family was affected by it along the way, but i see really no malice in this post, the point here was to talk about technologies involved in aircraft which seem to be enjoyed by a lot of people, we are walking a fine line here, IMHO ... it was unnecessary to make this noise about it, you are entitled to your opinion absolutely yes, but you also well know how things work in the BDC...

    I think this thread should go on as a technological thread as it has been intended, History is a teacher, and for the good and the bad we should continue to learn from it .....

    so now keep this thread in line with the topic and don't make me dump it in the trashbin......
     
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  11. darren7

    darren7 Tele-Holic

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    I’m fascinated by the overlap of Telecaster and warplane enthusiasts. You are my people.
     
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  12. Rufus

    Rufus Tele-Afflicted

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    Werner Voss.jpg

    As brogh has pointed out, the swastika was an ancient symbol of good luck.
    The photo above is from World War One, 1917 to be exact. 25 years before the N***s took power in Germany.

    The pilot is Werner Voss, a high scoring ace, friend and contemporary of Manfred von Richthofen, the famed Red Baron. Coincidentally, Voss was a German Jew.

    I understand that sometimes people can be offended by history, but if so, exercise your right to not participate in a thread.

    Last year, I had a thread detailing the 100th anniversary of the death of the Red Baron. One self righteous, passive aggressive member accused me of being a war monger and got the thread closed...all because he had an ancestor killed in a war. WTF????

    As adults, we can discuss sensitive topics in a respectful manner.

    Those who cannot remember history are doomed to repeat it.
     
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  13. RoscoeElegante

    RoscoeElegante Friend of Leo's

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    Point taken, brogh. I'll let this thread be. Thanks for the patient reminder....
     
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  14. John Backlund

    John Backlund Friend of Leo's Gold Supporter

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    Here's a 109G we saw at the Yorkshire Air Museum, (formerly Elvington RAF base) a couple weeks ago when we were in the UK. It was parked beneath the wing of a Halifax bomber...
    IMG_20190405_134331675.jpg

    IMG_20190405_134458063.jpg

    However, I'm not certain if it is an authentic 109 or a replica.

    They also had a Spitfire and Hurricane displayed outdoors, but they were fiberglass replicas...
    IMG_20190405_154909846_HDR.jpg

    The Halifax bomber was 'real', but built from the parts and components of other bombers, a conglomeration. I don't believe it is airworthy however.
    IMG_20190405_135949440.jpg
     
    Last edited: Apr 29, 2019
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  15. perttime

    perttime Tele-Afflicted

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  16. trapdoor2

    trapdoor2 Tele-Holic Gold Supporter

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    The quality of engines produced by the third Reich continually amaze me. Time and again I find commentary from restoration/rebuild about the very high build quality, beautiful machine work, tight tolerances, etc. For the wartime conditions, amazing. The lack of high-octane fuel seriously limited the ability of these power-plants to produce horsepower. Germany was limited to producing 90 octane fuel...while we were blithely using 115/145.

    My father worked with a couple of WWII 109 pilots in the 1960s. One had swum the channel 3 or 4 times. Dad said his friend commented he disliked the cramped cockpit and that he was sitting on the fuel tank. Much preferred the 190...still sitting on the tank though!

    The 109 was a revolution when it appeared. I've always thought the 109 looked like a tool, made to do a job with no ruffles or flourishes; just get it done. It did just that.
     
  17. Ironwolf

    Ironwolf Poster Extraordinaire Gold Supporter

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    I have a model of that particular aircraft (including its livery) hanging from my ceiling.
     
  18. 4 Cat Slim

    4 Cat Slim Friend of Leo's

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    Thanks for another interesting aviation post, Blazer.

    If I recall correctly, former Spanish Air Force Hispano Ha-1112s were
    used in the 1969 motion picture The Battle of Britain. There was also
    a re-engined bomber or two, portraying He-111s.
     
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  19. stxrus

    stxrus Friend of Leo's

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    Blazer, thank you for your aviation insight. I, among many others, enjoy the history and always look forward to the next installment
     
  20. perttime

    perttime Tele-Afflicted

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    Correct on the Ha-1112 Buchon being in use in 'The Battle of Britain'. It is much more widely available now than real Bf 109s. Also, using the RR Merlin engine, it is easier and "more economical" to operate. DB engines don't grow in trees....
     
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