Asher Guitars WD Music Products Amplified Parts Mod Kits DIY Nordstarnd Pickups
Asher Guitars WD Music Products Amplified Parts Mod Kits DIY Nordstarnd Pickups
Asher Guitars WD Music Products Amplified Parts Mod Kits DIY Nordstarnd Pickups


Discussion in 'Bad Dog Cafe' started by WetBandit, Mar 6, 2018.

  1. Jupiter

    Jupiter Telefied Silver Supporter

    Jun 22, 2010
    Osaka, Japan
    I don't think I've ever felt that careless rich folks have messed up prices for the rest of us, mainly because successful companies seem to be pretty savvy about price ranges. I mean, maybe they hype up a middling guitar to catch some "ooh shiny!" folks with more money than brains, but they usually offer something to the regular joes. I mean, we talk about Gibson pumping up prices to make an appeal as an aspirational "lifestyle brand", but as @studio1087 often tells us, they have quite a few MIA offerings under a grand. They KNOW they have to do that, because they just aren't going to move that many units at 5-6000 bucks a pop.

    People who are buying 10A-top PRSs and Custom Shop Gibbys inhabit a gear realm that I can't even see from where I sit. Cork sniffers paid big bucks for their Alpha Drive, but the Joyo is still out there for thirty bucks or whatever.

    That don't confront me, is what I'm sayin
  2. WetBandit

    WetBandit Friend of Leo's

    Oct 11, 2016

    It's not even about the rich really...i just used the rich as an example.

    Even people who are poor or in massive debt can be just as guilty of what I'm talking about.

    Honestly I think Frodebro hit the nail right out of the gate.

    Everytime a new "hidden gem" gets put on over that little cheapie is now a big ticket item...

    I think of a Laney AOR.

    If you wanted a JCM800 tone for cheap the AOR is a great choice...

    Except now they cost as much as a real 800

    I'm just gonna drop it all right beginning to realize how ridiculous I sound...that's never good.
    Tommy Biggs and davidchagrin like this.
  3. WetBandit

    WetBandit Friend of Leo's

    Oct 11, 2016
    Sorry folks I'm a moron playing Devils Advocate for no real reason...

    Good God I am sick.
    davidchagrin likes this.
  4. Mr. Lumbergh

    Mr. Lumbergh Poster Extraordinaire

    Jun 13, 2013
    Initech, Inc.
    You can't have one without the other. Like you said, if folks aren't willing to spend what it costs to make, the business isn't viable and folds.
  5. Milspec

    Milspec Friend of Leo's

    Feb 15, 2016
    Now that I think about it, there really is another strange thing to consider. I started my service business 12 years ago and after 3 years, it was a real struggle to find jobs. I remember discussing it with my wealthy brother who told me just raise my prices. I was confused and thought he was being a smart-ass, but he was serious. Out of some degree of panic, I raised my prices across the board by 30%. The phone started ringing and the jobs flowed in. I raised it another 10% a month later and even more business came in.

    Why? It changed the customer base from low to middle class to a more upper class customer base who attributed the cost with quality. Why do people pay so much more for the Escalade than the Chevy version when they are the same vehicle with just an emblem difference? They equate the price with quality. So, that same type of person would equate the more expensive guitar as the better quality strictly by price as well. If Gibson or PRS started selling at half the price, they would lose more customers than they would gain as the more wealthy player would believe that the guitar was now an inferior one.

    Bottom line is that people are just weird...I guess that is what it comes down to.
  6. Obsessed

    Obsessed Doctor of Teleocity Ad Free Member

    Nov 21, 2012
    There is a difference between searching for and/or within a specific market and mainstream advertising. Not too many Fulltone ads on TV, billboards, search engines, airline magazines, pre movie shorts, etc.
  7. Lobomov

    Lobomov Friend of Leo's

    Jul 15, 2013
    I buy stuff that makes me happy .. sometimes it's cheap gear but often it is expensive
    Milspec likes this.
  8. Nick Fanis

    Nick Fanis Friend of Leo's Ad Free Member

    Mar 3, 2003
    Sorry but you don't understand the whole free market concept .

    First of all the actual value of the "exact same thing" might change for many reasons.

    So there is no such thing as the "same thing".

    When somebody wants "the same thing" as you and he is willing to pay more in order to get it the price goes up.

    Same thing when NOBODY wants to buy the "same thing" anymore the price will go down.

    It is that simple.


    When I first went to Berlin looking to buy a flat ( in 2000) you could buy any flat for well under 700 euros/sq. meter.

    ANY flat even in the most central parts of the city...(Kreuzberg,Mitte,Charlottenburg,Prenzlauerberg)

    Berlin was a beautiful city full of parks,the best public transportation in the world,zero traffic,an amazing quality of life and had the same vibe and amazing atmosphere it has now.

    But NOBODY wanted to move there (especially RICH people) at the time because of the unemployment and in a city that (before the war) almost 7 million people lived in there were barely 2,5 million and housing was abundant.Germans also don't actually buy houses they invest their money elsewhere even if the loan interest rates where very low.

    At the same time in Athens (a typical "rock the casbah" southern Europe mega city of 5 million with zero infrastructure,zero parks,polution,insane traffic and the lowest living standard of any city in the EU) you couldn't buy a flat for under 3000 euros/sq.meter.

    Why?EVERYBODY in Greece buys houses to secure their money (we have the highest home ownership in the world cause before the euro we had 30% inflation and 10% yearly currency devaluation so buying housing was the only way to "save" your money) and everybody had access to low loan interest rates because of the euro.

    16 years later you will be lucky of you find an appartment in the most remote suburb of Berlin for under 2000 euros/sq.meter (forget about appartments in Mitte,Kreuzberg,Prenzlauerberg or Charlottenburg) because Berlin's economy exploded due to tourism,IT and EVERYBODY wants to go there (the actual city's population has gone up by almost a million).

    Oh by the way RICH people now want to go there..(especially AMERICAN rich people want to go there since living in Berlin still cost 1/8 of living in NY,SF or LA ... while beeing exactly as interesting and "cool to live in" )

    Not to mention that thousands of GREEKS (and other southern EU countrie's residents) bought appartnents in Berlin cauase the wanted to secure their money in a "safer country" like Germany)

    At the same time in 2015 Athens people were actually giving away their appartments because they couldn't afford to pay the insane tax property that home owners have to pay after the country's bunkrupcy and IMF's intervention and economic measures ,unemployment reached 30% and 10% of the population left the country or went back to their villages...and of course Greece was on the verge of exiting the Euro zone and returning to the Drachma (something that meant an automatic devaluation of 70% of any property or actual funds in Banks)

    But WAIT there is more ....:rolleyes:

    In the CENTER of Athens city (the most neglected and run down part of Athens ) a year ago you could buy any flat for under 500 euros/sq.meters,even one with an Acropolis view.....but than.....the CHINESE funds came...and were willing to pay 1400 euros/sq.meters for the "exact same" appartments....that they are buying by the hundreds ,fix up and offer as Airbnb rentals...(tourism is still doing very well it seems ...)

    So guess what the "same" appartments actually cost at least 1400 euros/sq.meters...

    Is this frustrating for someone (like me) who wanted to buy a city center appartment for 500 euros/sq. meter a year ago?

    YES it is....

    Do I HATE the "rich" New Yorker who jacked up the appartment prices by 800% in Kreuzberg because he WANTS to live in a "cool" place...with 1/8th of the money he spends in Village?

    Well MAYBE I do :D

    Is this the REAL WORLD?

    You BET it is.....
    Last edited: Mar 7, 2018
  9. Lobomov

    Lobomov Friend of Leo's

    Jul 15, 2013
    You do do realise that the fact that the rich pay more for a compagnies 'exclusive' products most likely lowers the price on the more 'ordinary stuff' you buy.

    Why in Gods name you'd have a problem with that is beyond me.

    Would you btw prefer that the rich kept their money stuffed in their matresses insted of spending it?
    davidchagrin, ndcaster and Nick Fanis like this.
  10. raysachs

    raysachs Tele-Afflicted Silver Supporter

    May 21, 2017
    Near Philly
    But it is a necessary first step on the path to enlightenment, Grasshopper. Everyone sounds ridiculous at times. Those who realize it go there far less often and are far less ridiculous than those who don’t.
    JuneauMike and davidchagrin like this.
  11. dogmeat

    dogmeat Tele-Holic

    Oct 12, 2017
    simple.... when some one will pay more than I am willing to spend
  12. cyclopean

    cyclopean Friend of Leo's

    Aug 14, 2009
    innsmouth, MA
    how does cheaper stuff being nicer affect "the real deal"? and if those people care, **** them.
  13. raysachs

    raysachs Tele-Afflicted Silver Supporter

    May 21, 2017
    Near Philly
    Expensive is relative. And speaking of relatives... I live comfortably - I’m reasonably well off by first world standards and obscenely wealthy compared to most people who I share this planet with. My brother is far far far wealthier than I am. What’s expensive to me isn’t for him.

    I live pretty modestly but I eat well and I can afford a couple of nice guitars - nicer than my talents justify, but my talents aren’t really in the justification business. I happily live in a middle class condo and drive a 10 year old Honda Fit and should easily get another 10 out of it. My brother has a few nice homes and just bought a Tesla, and not one of the newer cheaper ones.

    I will never buy a Tesla, or probably any other electric car, but I’m glad he was able to. Because folks like him create a market for really nice stuff, innovators are able to innovate and make money. Because he can spend north of 100 grand on an electric car today makes it far more likely that my daughters will be able to drive really decent consumer level electric cars for much of their adult lives. And if we free up solar and wind markets over the coming decade or two, electricity should be pretty clean and renewable by then. I’m not pushing that kind of innovation because I can’t afford to, but my brother is and good for him. And ultimately better for the rest of us.

    Think of all of the stuff we all use day to day now that only a few people could afford to use when they were being developed. Computers, smartphones, incredibly nice and functional appliances, etc, etc, etc.

    I’m sure this somehow applies to guitars too. I’m not sure exactly how, but I know that cheap, consumer level guitars are a LOT better today than they were when I started playing and I’m sure the technology and craftsmanship that has gone into making crazy expensive guitars over the years has had something to do with it. And now I can even afford a pretty damn nice guitar if I see the benefit in getting one... But the middle class guitars I have are so damn nice these days!

    Last edited: Mar 7, 2018
    davidchagrin likes this.
  14. Paul Jenkin

    Paul Jenkin Friend of Leo's

    Aug 17, 2017
    Essex, UK
    Expensive is where you buy something and get no benefit from it (either because you don't use it or it's incapable of being used). That could be a £0.50 biro or £10,000 guitar.

    Expensive is also when you buy the cheap option but needed the better specified and more expensive one - and you can't complete the job without it.

    Expensive is paying over the odds for an expensive, over-specified item when the cheaper one would do the job for anything you're likely to face. Though this one is always subject to whether the purchaser "wants" the Rolls-Royce option and can afford it.

    Expensive can mean many things. here's a few interesting and common sayings I've come across down the years:

    - Some people know the price of everything and the value of nothing.

    - Quality pays, it doesn't cost.

    - A fool and his money are easily parted.
    knopflerfan, WetBandit and nojazzhere like this.
  15. TwangyWhammy

    TwangyWhammy Friend of Leo's

    Jan 10, 2014
    South Hemi GMT+12
    There is a difference between the meaning of the words - Expensive and Valuable.

    Some view the difference as directly proportional, while others see it as being inversely proportional. Then there are those who don't see any difference at all.

    Many of us have dug empty wells and pierced ourselves with many griefs, because we have failed to make the correct distinction between the two... because it can vary from case to case.


    Regarding the pursuit of happiness, we have been preconditioned to respond to these three things - the lust of the eyes, the lust of the flesh, and the pride of life. None of these will deliver true and lasting happiness, but ALL commercial advertising formats will contain at least one (if not all three) of these things. Until we truly understand this, we could find ourselves chasing rainbows for the rest of our lives.

    WetBandit and nojazzhere like this.
  16. SURF

    SURF Tele-Holic

    Jan 23, 2010
    Taken from here:

    "What is mania? Mania is a specific unusual mood in which a person becomes too happy, too euphoric, too irritable or too hyper, in a way which causes trouble. Manic people suffer from rapid speech, they talk too much (they feel pressure to keep speaking), and they have too many ideas. They are distractible and often jump from one idea to another. They are hyperactive, and often awaken early or cannot sleep. A person who is manic is not the person’s usual self. Sometimes manics venture things with a high probability of getting hurt or suffering financial losses.

    Although mania may resemble happiness, cheerfulness, or high energy – in its extreme form, mania is quite risky for the manic person and for the people around. Let me give you some examples of the poor judgment manics show. A manic patient was driving 80 mph down the freeway, and when stopped by a highway patrol officer, he started a fight. He was lucky that the patrolman only beat him up a little. Another patient, a conservative middle-aged mother of several children, became manic enough to go down to the red light district and solicit male customers. An impoverished patient bought two Cadillacs in one day, though he couldn’t afford a new car at all. Another manic patient on pension ordered a private jet, asking the company to paint it custom yellow for him. A manic patient left his wife and drove a thousand miles, got up in the middle of the night, took off all his clothes and ran around a motel parking lot. A manic patient threatened the life of the President, so the Secret Service considered arresting him. You wouldn’t want all the trouble which mania causes for a person and the family."
  17. SweetClyde99

    SweetClyde99 Tele-Holic

    Feb 1, 2016
    Jefferson City, MO
    The ol’ 16 oz T-bone and 24 oz porterhouse combo.
    3fngrs likes this.
  18. JuneauMike

    JuneauMike Friend of Leo's

    May 5, 2015
    Boom, that right there.
  19. JuneauMike

    JuneauMike Friend of Leo's

    May 5, 2015
    I think some of the subtext of this whole thread is angst towards capitalism. Those greedy blood-sucking so-and-so's who charge premium prices for "boutique" gear. I get all that because I used to be young and broke and could not, for the life of me, see a pathway to economic stability. Ha, not that I'm there now.

    Lately, for unrelated reasons, I've been watching a lot of YouTube videos from Brian Wampler. He is definitely one of the greedy blood-suckers since his boutique pedals all hover around $200. That's too much money for a pedal, as far as I'm concerned. But that's my consumer choice and I don't make a living with a guitar and amp so ....

    But you watch a handful of his videos and I think you will conclude that he's just a regular guy like all of us. He loves music and has found a niche that he's passionate about and he appears to work really hard at it. And he's exceedingly generous with his knowledge. I love that most of his demo's use Boss pedals or other affordable pedals.

    He's an actual face that you can put to that evil, shadowy, behemoth of capitalism.

    And some old guy advice here: You'll be much happier of you spend less time thinking about what other people have and spend more time thinking about all that they chose to give away.

    Like Mr. Rodgers famously observed: The crash may be terrible, but look at all the people rushing to help.
    Last edited: Mar 7, 2018
    3fngrs likes this.
  20. moosie

    moosie Doctor of Teleocity Silver Supporter

    Jul 18, 2010
    Western Connecticut
    I'll add to this...

    When a company enters the market with a new product, initially there's no competition, and profit margins may be quite high. Competition forms because overly high margins exist. Competitors greedily eye those profits, and want a piece. If there's no barrier to entry, and if the first-mover fails to continue to innovate, price wars ensue, resulting in no one making very much money. The product is now a commodity, available anywhere, at consistent quality, and at prices below which no one would be able to stay in business.

    The most successful companies not only have good products and services, they find ways to provide something that no one else can. The "Apple ecosystem" is one example. The ever-expanding (to a point) network effect of a company like eBay is another.
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