Asher Guitars WD Music Products Amplified Parts Mod Kits DIY Nordstarnd Pickups Warmoth.com
Asher Guitars WD Music Products Amplified Parts Mod Kits DIY Nordstarnd Pickups Warmoth.com
Asher Guitars WD Music Products Amplified Parts Mod Kits DIY Nordstarnd Pickups Warmoth.com

eNUT - Any validity to this?

Discussion in 'Tele-Technical' started by Thighbanez, Feb 9, 2011.

  1. Thighbanez

    Thighbanez Tele-Afflicted

    Aug 5, 2010
    delMARva
    http://www.monteallums.com/eNut_Installation.html

    I've never heard of this mod until today and I wanted to find out if anyone on here has heard of it or used it before.

    From what I gathered reading the instructions, this moves the nut closer to the bridge?

    :confused::confused:
     

  2. Bolide

    Bolide Friend of Leo's

    Nov 21, 2010
    Rocky Hill, CT
    Puts an unanchored Zero-Fret in the wrong location :confused:

    What rhymes with "Snake Oil"?
     

  3. Suproman

    Suproman Tele-Meister

    350
    Feb 23, 2006
    Ottawa, ON, Canada
    Yes, it can help. What you are doing is basically adjusting the individual string length at the nut end to get the intonation right on the first few frets. Similar to the Earvana nut system or the Buzz Feiten system, where the nut is moved slightly closer to the bridge.

    Pat
     

  4. Thighbanez

    Thighbanez Tele-Afflicted

    Aug 5, 2010
    delMARva
    Thank you for the responses.
    I know now that this is not the solution I need.
     

  5. David Collins

    David Collins Tele-Afflicted

    Sep 28, 2009
    Ann Arbor, MI
    Some of the worst, most misguided, and all around bad advice ever.
     

  6. Al Watsky

    Al Watsky Tele-Afflicted

    Apr 5, 2007
    New Jersey
    Wow.
    You can see the problems looming round' the corner on this mod.
    What is shown is sometimes done by some very well known custom builders.
    The piece of bone in front of the nut is sometimes done.
    The tang less fret can work too.
    Both would need careful adjustment to the instrument.
    The advancement of the nut is slight aprox. 7/10's of a mm.
    The movement of the "take off point" of the string needs to be balanced with adjustment of the string hight at the first fret for a neutral tempered half step.
    Its technically demanding.
    A good strobe and a good ear are necessary.
    Not usually a DIY adjustment.
    Very effective if carried out in the correct manner.
    The thickness of the addition needs to be precise or everything will be wrong.
    Caveat Emptor .
    I advance nuts all the time, its something I've been doing for 20 years.
    This is "not" a method I would suggest, although the concept is correct.
     

  7. garrett

    garrett Tele-Afflicted

    Apr 20, 2007
    .
    I don't understand something here. Doesn't the nut become irrelevant when you fret a note? And isn't the point of the bridge saddle to adjust string length? 1mm in either direction is an easy adjustment from the bridge without modifying a thing. What don't I get?
     

  8. piece of ash

    piece of ash Friend of Leo's

    Dec 29, 2010
    Sugar Land, TX
    It's about whether the interval between the nut and the first fret is a perfect half step.

    Seems to me to be the long way around a problem that is essentially a function of slot depth in the nut.

    Some nuts could use a little push toward the bridge... maybe 10 thou... but this is... wait for it... nuts!
     

  9. Al Watsky

    Al Watsky Tele-Afflicted

    Apr 5, 2007
    New Jersey
    In practice its between 15 and 35k depending on the string.
    More on some instruments that are hand built and or simply misadjusted.
    Instruments made in the last 10 years by most major manufacturers have addressed this problem.
    Awareness of sharpness it the first position forced factories to pay more attention to the issue.
    Some folks don't want to lower the strings at the nut as they play acoustic guitars that need power on the open strings.
    Electric players that play in open position also appreciate the ability to play "campfire" chords in a typical folk/bluegrass style.
    For those folks moving the nut forward allows a higher action at the nut while maintaining the neutrality of the half step interval at the first fret.
    Many professional musicians have that preference.
    In fact the nut is a large factor in the intonation of of the first 8 frets.
    Its effect drops off as you ascend closer to the 12 fret.
    Many folks in the "vintage" business have seen very old guitars that have been modified in this way. Modified 40 and 50 years ago.
    Some people who have perfect pitch insist on playing the guitar anyway.
    We need to help those folks out, don't we ?
    Although equal temperament is a compromise it is a functional compromise.
     

  10. Thighbanez

    Thighbanez Tele-Afflicted

    Aug 5, 2010
    delMARva
    Blah...

    This eNUt thing is another "Frets 1-5" solution.
    I think my problem is the slot depth on my nut being too high (notes play sharp when playing on G&B strings)...don't need another nut or an extension lol.

    Thanks guys.
     
    Last edited: Feb 10, 2011

  11. Al Watsky

    Al Watsky Tele-Afflicted

    Apr 5, 2007
    New Jersey
    It will play flat if too shallow. If the strings are sharp and the nut is low you will need to move the take off point of the nut.
     

  12. David Collins

    David Collins Tele-Afflicted

    Sep 28, 2009
    Ann Arbor, MI
    I've never found this to be true. With the slots cut as low as they can possibly go without buzzing out (dead even to .0005" proud of the plane of the frets), if the nut is perfectly positioned to 12TET spacing strings will still often ring a cent or so sharp. I've never seen them ring flat however.
     

  13. Thighbanez

    Thighbanez Tele-Afflicted

    Aug 5, 2010
    delMARva
    I agree with this.
    I've had some pretty low cut nuts and they've never been cut so that they were flat when open or fretted.
    Even with the strongest grip I could give they always went sharp.
    For them to be flat when fretted the person cutting the nut would have to have no idea of what tuning the guitar is all about...or completely careless and cut the nut slots too deep.

    I believe that AJ Watsky thought I meant shallow in measuring from the bottom of the nut...going up.

    I guess my terminology could be clearer.
     

  14. Al Watsky

    Al Watsky Tele-Afflicted

    Apr 5, 2007
    New Jersey
    On recently produced Japanese product if the nut is too low they come up flat.
    Just a fact that I've confirmed several times in the recent past.
    Some older tech's reflex is to lower the string height at the nut too much.
    The reason being in the recent past that was the only solution to the sharpness. They ere on the side of comfort.
    ( in one case have followed the trail back to the math expert that developed the fret layout and placed the nut using numbers rather than physics.)
    Some tech's don't check the intonation and though comfortable it comes up flat.
    Lots of high end product has the nut well placed these days.
    Lower things too much and you have flatness.
    Folks tend to tolerate slight flatness.
    Usually they just press harder and compensate that way.
    Thats not how I roll.
    Your observation is correct for much of the product out there.
    2 cents sharp is too much for me. Too much for lots of folks.
    All of this is player pressure driven. So there is room for variation.
    Micro adjustments are possible and necessary .
    For most people this is just theoretic hair splitting.
    For me its more like a mission.
     

  15. Thighbanez

    Thighbanez Tele-Afflicted

    Aug 5, 2010
    delMARva
    Mission indeed.
    Well, I can't discount your experiences...as they are yours.
    Scary to hear though...mainly because I didn't think that could happen.
     

  16. jbmando

    jbmando Poster Extraordinaire

    If the nut slots are too shallow, in other words, not cut deep (low) enough, it makes you stretch the string more to fret it in the first five frets and it will play sharp, not flat. I have never had a nut slot issue be the cause of flat intonation.
     

  17. David Collins

    David Collins Tele-Afflicted

    Sep 28, 2009
    Ann Arbor, MI
    I've spend a lot, a lot of time paying very close attention to these details, studying, listening, measuring and recording data more than anyone I know of, and still have to disagree with your conclusions quite strongly.

    If a nut is placed at "perfect" positioning according to conventional 2^(1/12) spacing, there is simply no way that you can bring the first fret flat by cutting the nut too low. If the nut is compensated too far forward relative to 2^(1/12) spacing, then yes, it can come up a bit flat if you cut the slots down to the same plane as the frets, which may be the case in the Japanese instruments you've encountered this with. On a standard conventional nut positioning however, the effect of flattening from a nut cut low is just not possible in my experience.
     

  18. murrmac123

    murrmac123 Tele-Meister

    197
    Jan 25, 2008
    Edinburgh
    Hi David.

    Greg Byers and Mike Doolin have spent equally as much time measuring and recording data, and the conclusion they both reach is that it is impossible to achieve optimum intonation without nut compensation.

    I like to term it the "clothesline effect" , whereby it requires perceptibly more pressure to depress the string at the first fret than at the twelfth.

    If the frets and the nut are located perfectly according to the 2^12 formula, and if you tune the fretted string at the 3rd fret spot on, then the open string will be flat. Guaranteed.

    Nut compensation is the only answer.
     

  19. David Collins

    David Collins Tele-Afflicted

    Sep 28, 2009
    Ann Arbor, MI
    I'm quite familiar with both Byers and Doolin's work, and have relatively few disagreements with either of them. Where my positions may differ from theirs is primarily on points of degree, and not direction.

    The issue in question here is one of direction however, where I would say that both Byers and Doolin's work agrees with my own statements, in that it is not possible for a note to end up flat in the lower frets with a conventionally placed nut, regardless of how low the slots are cut.
     

  20. Al Watsky

    Al Watsky Tele-Afflicted

    Apr 5, 2007
    New Jersey
    Oh, I see what your saying. Yes, your correct.
    By shallow I read low, not high regarding string height from fret.
    You wrote shallow referring to the depth of slot.
     

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