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Dang, this one got away. Vintage Black Line Fender

Discussion in 'Amp Central Station' started by keithb7, Nov 9, 2017.

  1. keithb7

    keithb7 Friend of Leo's

    Age:
    46
    Jan 9, 2010
    Western Canada
    I would have paid the $500 Canadian for it most likely. If the guts turned out pretty good. I'd fix it, put new grill cloth on it and put in an ET-65 speaker probably. Yes, it would always be a player's amp at that point. The $1K Wally value mentioned is about $1300 Canadian. Not a bad investment. I'm not sure it'll drop any further in value than that ever. Even as a players amp. I'd have done it even if for the sake of just resurrecting it again. Even if I had to break even to sell it.

    My problem is the passion I have for these old amps. I throw all business sense out the window and fall smitten over the old sick ones. I like to nurse them back to health and send them out to a good owner, who'll get them up on stages again.
     
    Last edited: Nov 10, 2017

  2. Wally

    Wally Telefied Ad Free Member

    Mar 17, 2003
    Lubbock, TX
    I agree that it needs to be put back in use.
     

  3. moosie

    moosie Doctor of Teleocity Silver Supporter

    Age:
    60
    Jul 18, 2010
    Western Connecticut
    I stand corrected, too. I forgot that the blackline faceplates still have the double-line, rounded corners between the two channels. That's what I saw on the blurry zoom, and I thought "aha!". :oops:


    Regarding how close the circuit is to BF... that year is very close regardless. Easy and cheap to revert, if it's not already there. And it's still going to have the neat cloth wiring of the earlier era. For another couple years.
     

  4. Dacious

    Dacious Friend of Leo's

    Mar 16, 2003
    Godzone
    I just checked - my SF Vibrochamp I'm resurrecting is a 'Blackline'. Coupled with the '66 output transformer, and 67 power transformer and 52nd week 67 chassis code, I must have one of the earliest Drip Edge VCs IMG_20170907_132228.jpg
     
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  5. screamin eagle

    screamin eagle Friend of Leo's

    Oct 9, 2008
    S. CA
    Man, some people just don’t have any luck.





    However I don’t think you fit that description.
     
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  6. Wally

    Wally Telefied Ad Free Member

    Mar 17, 2003
    Lubbock, TX
    Dacious, the earliest drip edge, blackline amps were April, 1967. If by ‘chassis stamp number’ you are referring to the ink-stamped work date code, then the amp cannot be one of the earliest drip-edge, blackline amps. I wonder why the corners of the drip-edge are missing....because the cloth appears to be original. And....is the trem set at full intensity internally??
     

  7. King Fan

    King Fan Friend of Leo's Ad Free Member

    Jan 1, 2013
    Salt Lake City
    No tears Keith. If you didn’t land it it means it was a dog. You only get super low prices on real gems.

    FWIW I thought ‘blackline’ and ‘dripedge’ usually went together, and at least some exceptions were due to later revisions, eg new faceplates. No?
     
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  8. keithb7

    keithb7 Friend of Leo's

    Age:
    46
    Jan 9, 2010
    Western Canada
    @King Fan, as with all things vintage Fender, generally the only thing consistent is inconsistency.
    My understanding is black line SF amps were generally the earliest examples of SF amps. Usually indicating a BF circuit. (Wolf in Sheep's clothing) However, there are rogue examples such as @grolan1 's 1970 VR earlier in this thread. We could maybe assume someone at Fender was cleaning out Leo's office in 1970 when he left, and found a Black Line VR chassis there. They stamped it and built a new amp?

    As we spend more and more time researching Fender amps and date codes, we see all kinds of odd things. There is a guy on FB groups doing an incredible job gathering vintage Fender amp info and date codes. Pretty much any time he sees a vintage Fender amp he asks for data on it. He's writing a book I believe. Hopefully it will be the epitome of Fender books. Grolan I recommend you share you info with him on that black line 1970. I suspect it may be an anomaly. Nick Grabien is the person.
     
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  9. moosie

    moosie Doctor of Teleocity Silver Supporter

    Age:
    60
    Jul 18, 2010
    Western Connecticut
    No. Drip had a wider range of use, up until some time in '69. Blacklines were gone about a year earlier, I think.

    My very early '69 Twin is a drip, not a black.
     
    King Fan likes this.

  10. King Fan

    King Fan Friend of Leo's Ad Free Member

    Jan 1, 2013
    Salt Lake City
    Aw, you guys got me -- I was wrong and you're both right. Being wrong always drives me to Google (and beer)...

    This article by Vaughan Skow lays out all the dates, details, and reasons why and when Fender added and later removed these two -- different -- cosmetic features that we love so much, not to mention the introduction of SF 'blue stripe' grill cloth...
     

  11. keithb7

    keithb7 Friend of Leo's

    Age:
    46
    Jan 9, 2010
    Western Canada
    That was a good read King Fan. However, Vaughn stated by 1970 all Fedner SF amps had lost their Drip Edge. Not so, according to Grolan's 1970 VR. Based on what Vaughn tells us about least popular amps, it would seem that the Vibrolux Reverb was having trouble finding its own place in the Fender line up. They were still offered with BF cosmetics well into the SF era. Silly people. It was 1969, who knew how great the VR would become my the new millennia?
     
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  12. AlbertaGriff

    AlbertaGriff Tele-Meister

    264
    Mar 2, 2016
    Alberta, Canada
    Interestingly, Grolans 1970 VR has the black lines, but not the drip edge... So that would jive with the article. It's only the faceplate which seems 'out of place' on that amp.
     
    King Fan likes this.

  13. Dacious

    Dacious Friend of Leo's

    Mar 16, 2003
    Godzone
    Not sure what you mean about intensity set internally - haven't got it working yet.

    As far as corners, don't know. The amp is missing some original bits and pieces so they're long gone if it had them.

    The people who sold it were storage unit salvages, probably missed the baggie of original parts somewhere nearby or just lost.

    I'm just amazed the output trans is a year older than the powertrans and eighteen months older than the chassis. Shows how long stuff hung around at Fender. The faceplate I presume should have also been used a while before.
     

  14. Wally

    Wally Telefied Ad Free Member

    Mar 17, 2003
    Lubbock, TX
    Davious, I was being...or trying to be...a bit humorous.... nothing serious. Obviously, the amp is in less than proper condition.
    Fender never wasted anything. Parts were us until they were gone....and if a blackface panel or a Sf blackline panel ended up being used after what someone considers a concrete date of change, that was what happened. There are exceptions to the rules with these things. There are AB763 tube charts on 1969 amps??? I have owned a dead mint 1957 5E3 Deluxe with a tube chart for a 5F6A. I have owned a drip edge, blackline Dual Showman with an AB165 tube chart. I own a 1963 BF Pro that does NOT have a stamped serial number in the chassis....it is a prototype.
     

  15. Thanks for the details keithb7, I will for sure reach out to him....
     

  16. Wally

    Wally Telefied Ad Free Member

    Mar 17, 2003
    Lubbock, TX
    The Gagliano/Huntington/Reibe work entailed gathering information on all eras of Fender amps. This information was gathered from amp owners and techs on what I would guess to be tens of thousands of amps over a number of years beginning sometime in the ‘90’s.....and that gathering may be ongoing to this date. That work is the source of the serial number charts, and ime is the most comprehensive research into the details of Fender amps. I have yet to run across an amp with some odd detail that is not covered in that work...except for the prototype that I have. Prototypes are by nature different from regular production....so it is not to be expected that such an amp would be part of that research because a prototype
    My point is that although any work is to be applauded, I read nothing new in that article...just as all of the serial number charts that are published in various places are derived from that earlier work. Fwiw, before the 20th Century articles that published the Gagliano/Huntington/Reibe work; identification and dating of Fender Amps was best done just as it is best done today.....date codes of components, tube charts if applicable, and work date code stamps.....that is, IF a person has the experience of looking at these amps.
    I would encourage anyone who wants to know about these Fender amps to go here...
    http://www.ggjaguar.com/biblio.htm
    And read the six articles entitled “Dating Fender Amps”. Everything that anyone would want to know is there...including Sf grille cloth changes. Did you know that some tilt-back legs had serial numbers on them...while others did not? Every time I visit there, I might find some new tidbit. Just as Nacho’s book on Blackguard Teles is indispensable when dealing with that subject, the “Dating Fender Amp”articles are the acme of information on Fender amps.
     
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  17. keithb7

    keithb7 Friend of Leo's

    Age:
    46
    Jan 9, 2010
    Western Canada
    I have no idea what Nic Grabien is up to. However I will say that today a person would have access to the internet. Data is accessible in ways incomprehensible in the 90’s.
     
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  18. Wally

    Wally Telefied Ad Free Member

    Mar 17, 2003
    Lubbock, TX
    And yet....those of us who dealt in these vintage amps back in the pre-internet days still knew what we were looking at. Knowledge did not suddenly appear with the ‘net. We used to observe what we came across...and occasionally some of used that old fashioned technology of the printed word. LOL...
     

  19. Dacious

    Dacious Friend of Leo's

    Mar 16, 2003
    Godzone

    Ah, OK - slow on the uptake. I've been told the chassis ink stamp code T405267 means 2 things: it was made 52nd week 67, and Leo was a Scrooge McDuck who made his employees work between Christmas and New Year! :lol:
     

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