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Can I move bridge to prevent neck dive?

Discussion in 'Tele Home Depot' started by Honza992, Sep 25, 2017.

  1. telemnemonics

    telemnemonics Poster Extraordinaire

    Age:
    57
    Mar 2, 2010
    Maine
    Maybe one of the Stratele permutations with basically a Tele having a Strat upper horn but the Tele cutaway, pickguard and bridge.
    All the Tele parts would fit, the Strat horn would shift the balance both physically and psychologically, and you wouldn't have to make a neck with an extra long heel and a cramped misshapen cutaway to get fret access up into the middle of the body.

    Lots of interesting choices...

    The OP here shows a build, but other pics have been lost from the old thread.
    http://www.tdpri.com/threads/stratele.367490/

    Here is another build over at OSG
    https://www.offsetguitars.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=9&t=104604
     

  2. MatsEriksson

    MatsEriksson Tele-Meister

    135
    Aug 12, 2011
    Malmoe Sweden
    Why complicate things?
    Buy or build a headless bass, with neck from Moses made of graphite or something. I did.
    And by the way, no, you can't just move the bridge to buck neck dive. It probably never will. You can MAYBE change it out to heavier gauge steel, stainless steel, go for heavier pickups like EMG and make all pickguards or back plates out of some steel or metal (yeah, and I mean NO aluminium). At a stretch.

    Fender guitars, both strats, or Teles doesn't suffer from neck dive. I've yet to come across any Tele (of any brand) that neck dives, even sitting down without a strap.

    But P and J basses do from time to time, and are wide stretch, some of the heavy 70s bodies doesn't, and some 60s do, and 80s. A hit or miss, it seems.

    Instead of a crap shoot, of second guessing this or that, and if you do makes neck dive THE priority then only headless necks will do. Then you can just rely on that they don't neck dive just by looking at them. I've yet to see or hear anyone complaining about neck dive on headless instruments regardless of how many strings they stuck on up there.

    If you have a thorn in your side for the looks of headless, well then, then neck dive is NOT your priority.

    I am stickler (i e wary) for neck diving too, but if it has a slight neck dive, and it stays when slanting it in playing position I don't mind. Telecasters that probably will neck dive? That's a first for me.
     

  3. Mike Simpson

    Mike Simpson Doctor of Teleocity

    Age:
    61
    Mar 19, 2006
    Gilbert, AZ (PHX)
    A better thread title would be: Solutions to a non-existent problem...
     

  4. RickyRicardo

    RickyRicardo Friend of Leo's

    Mar 27, 2012
    Calgary, Alberta
    I've never read anywhere that the Strat solved a balance problem with a Tele. They are totally different guitars and the big complaint from players of the Tele was the square sides were digging into arms and bellies hence the forearm cut and the belly cut.

    Once again go and try one out at your local guitar shop.
     
    MatsEriksson likes this.

  5. RogerC

    RogerC Poster Extraordinaire Vendor Member

    Mar 30, 2011
    Oklamerica
    Holy moly! Grab the torches and pitchforks! Someone wants to try something different on his own Telecaster build? BLASPHEMY! He's a witch! Burn him!!

    I love how some of you are essentially saying, "It's not a problem for me, so it's not a problem for you."

    Honza, it sounds like you've already got a good idea of what you're looking for, so I say go for it. Sure, you'll have to address a few idiosyncrasies while you're going through the build, but nothing that'll doom the project. The main thing that Mike already mentioned was body thickness. Make sure you have enough depth to accommodate the electronics you want to use.

    Wow. I can't tell you how incredibly helpful that is :rolleyes:
     

  6. Mike Simpson

    Mike Simpson Doctor of Teleocity

    Age:
    61
    Mar 19, 2006
    Gilbert, AZ (PHX)
    Sorry Roger... I guess I should have used a smiley face. While arm end belly cuts are not my preference I was kidding.
    Sometimes you see what you want to find.... no one else did.
     
    Mr Green Genes likes this.

  7. Mad Kiwi

    Mad Kiwi Tele-Afflicted

    We are not evil, bad human beings only in it for ourselves here....NOT one person has said they have ever had an issue with a Tele neck diving.

    The OP has zero experience with 6 string guitars and we believe he has invented a problem, is investing a lot of time and effort to build an unusual guitar to solve a problem that not anyone here has acknowledged is a reality. Not only that but he has reinvented history to say that Leo invented (or partly invented) the Strat to cure this non existent problem....

    I think we are simply trying to set the record straight and put him on the "right" track......Forgive us. :)

    Should he simply want to build a Tele with a relocated bridge, then he should go for it, many here will watch with interest.
     

  8. matmosphere

    matmosphere Tele-Meister

    260
    May 27, 2015
    District of Columbia
    Just guessing here but the strat might have come from the idea to make a guitar that looked like the p-bass gender was already selling, where the longer upper horn does really address the neck dive issue.

    Leo was a creator, he clearly liked to design and build things. I don't know that his goal was to always make something better so much as something different.

    I don't think you're original idea is bad at all but I still think you should just build a telemaster. ;)
     

  9. BigDaddyLH

    BigDaddyLH Telefied Ad Free Member


  10. MatsEriksson

    MatsEriksson Tele-Meister

    135
    Aug 12, 2011
    Malmoe Sweden
    So why do you think a Telecater has neck dive then? Have you ever tried one with neck dive?

    Yes, the intonation is thrown off. And you will not buck neck dive. We don't know from your viewpoint what you mean "to the left". If your orientation is from playing point and you look down on the guitar, the bridge movement to the left will certainly increase neck dive. If you move it to the right it will move towards the lower bout/end of the body and you can't really move the neck along with it, because just as others have said, it will not be a Telecaster anymore but a jerkweasel of a guitar, you change upper horn, lower horn, neck pocket and so on. Which will hinder upper fret access.

    How about different body woods, and not so many cavitites on it? Since you have not tried any Tele, or only tried Teles that neck dives, I am curious. If you do the regular Tele shape everything equal and just build the wood, like one millimeter thicker all around, and not the most lightweight wood, you wouldn't feel, see or hear any difference.
    I for one, can't think that you're moving the bridge, instead of dealing with the more density type of wood of the body, even diameters. Just increase the bigness (?!) of the Tele shape, with doing the body wider, deeper by a tiny millimeter and you'll buck whatever neck dive there is, which I think didn't occur in the first place anyway.

    I for one have even tried those hollow body Gibsons (E335 and the like) and thanks to the body is WIDE, instead of deep, it doesn't neck dive, and those bodies are light and hollowed out with no solid wood inside. Even then they don't neck dive, but you'll have the body tucking in your armpit while sitting down. I do prefer this way, rather than a deep body (say of 175) or acoustic guitar deep body because that wreaks havoc on my picking arm elbow and shoulder after a while. The thinner guitar bodies the better for me. But that's for me only.

    Just a little tinier thicker body back to front, even unnoticeable, can produce the sufficient enough lever effect or heaviness of the body to keep any alleged neck dive at bay. Body dives are equally as bad though. FWIW I don't know why anyone should move things around like that in order to buck neck dive (or any fears of it). The rationale behind it seems quite bizzare if you'd ask me.

    Professional luthiers would mostly go for the density of body wood, type of wood, OR increasing the diameter all around the body, or depth of the body, instead of even thinking the idea to move any bridge in any direction. Guitars have a vast difference in body thickness, it's quite some leeway and headroom you can dabble with before any guitar body will turn out too thin, or too thick and be a liability on your fingers and arm positions.

    Like others have said but in an awkward way: What have you been smokin'? ;)


    I do agree on you with one thing though. Regarding bass guitars, me too wants the bridge as far out as possible and no "ballast space of wood" from the end tail of the bridge towards the edge of the body. But it has to work together with the rest of the design of the body and bass. One can't always do that. All of it depends and hangs together and are dependent of each other...
     

  11. Mr Green Genes

    Mr Green Genes Tele-Afflicted

    Feb 23, 2016
    MI

    The OP won't know if it's a problem for him until he actually has some first-hand experience in the matter, which is why we all keep telling him to go to a music store and play a Telecaster before going and creating problems that didn't exist before in order to fix problems that never existed in the first place.

    "not a problem for me, so it's not a problem for you"-

    The best knowledge on the subject would be first hand knowledge- again, that's why we're all telling him to just go and play one before making all these radical changes to the design.

    In the absence of first-hand experience in playing the instrument, his next best option would be to consult others who do have first-hand experience with the instrument.

    He's done so, and we're responding to the question in good faith and to the best of our own personal knowledge and experience. We're all telling him the same thing. It's up to him whether or not he listens.

    If you have personally had problems with neck dive on your Telecaster, feel free to include them in your post.

    Please don't stand in judgement of people who are conveying their own experiences that they were asked to convey.
     
    Last edited: Sep 28, 2017

  12. dconeill

    dconeill Tele-Afflicted

    Suggest you build a Strat instead. Because of the geometry, neck dive is just about impossible. Build the Strat without a vibrato bar (i.e., with a fixed tailpiece).
     

  13. TRexF16

    TRexF16 Friend of Leo's

    Apr 4, 2011
    Tucson
    Forgive me, I forgot to post the 24 3/4" neck template last night. Things are kind of hectic here in Iraq right now and I got sidetracked. I'll get it done, I promise.

    Also, I recently built a guitar for a friend using a Gotoh modern tele bridge (vintage holes). That thing is massive - over 8 oz., compared to about 2 oz. for an ashtray style. So that's one more way you can shift the center of gravity on your build towards the rear strap button. And BTW, this Gotoh bridge retains the same holes as the original vintage, so you can always swap back to a lighter ashtray style if you like (same attribute as the 24 3/4" neck. Hmmm, I see a trend here.)

    And BTW, I concur with the recent tack this thread has taken away from the pitchforks and torches and more in the direction of you being able to build your guitar any way you please! I encourage you to look into the suggestions I am providing, as they give you the attributes you are looking for, while retaining the ability to turn the whole thing back into a "stock" tele if you ever change your mind.

    Cheers,
    Rex
     

  14. RogerC

    RogerC Poster Extraordinaire Vendor Member

    Mar 30, 2011
    Oklamerica
    Yes, you really should've used the smiley face. It's hard to tell tone from postings as we all know ;)

    I don't have a problem with offering input. Quite the contrary actually. I do take issue with people who don't bother to read the OP in its entirety and then take a condescending tone. For example, the OP specifically says,
    And yet several people have said, "You should just build a strat."

    He also listed other options he's aware of but specifically wanted info regarding moving the bridge.

    I just think this thread highlights a common problem on forums (and in society in general) in that people are too quick to offer up their thoughts without really listening to the other person first.
     

  15. TRexF16

    TRexF16 Friend of Leo's

    Apr 4, 2011
    Tucson
    Here you go, as promised!
    Cheers,
    Rex
     

    Attached Files:


  16. Honza992

    Honza992 TDPRI Member

    Age:
    47
    42
    Aug 6, 2015
    Nottingham, UK
    Hey keep me updated on your progress! :)
     

  17. Honza992

    Honza992 TDPRI Member

    Age:
    47
    42
    Aug 6, 2015
    Nottingham, UK

    I think that I have said half a dozen times now:
    1. I understand scale length and intonation. I SAID I UNDERSTAND SCALE LENGTH AND INTONATION.
    2. I want to keep the guitar as light a weight as possible, so all those people saying I should add lead weights to the body...please read my earlier posts.
    3. To the people who say Tele's balance.....well at least one other person has said his doesn't in the way that he would like...so clearly it is an issue for some people. Most people think that Precisions & Jazz basses balance adequately with the stap button at the 12th. I think they don't. I build to have the strap button at the 11th, maximum. So I know that my sensitivity to neck dive is more than most people.
    4. To the people who say that moving the neck so that the strap button is nearer the nut won't affect balance....well your education has let you down. Please revise the physics of turning moments and levers.
    5. To everyone else who has posted, thank you for doing so! So far this has been fun. I'm glad this has generated such a lot of discussion. That is the joy of the internet and forums like this one.

    Keep your comments coming:)

    This is a specialist Tele forum, so clearly people feel loyal to the design that Fender came up with. I understand that. That's why I want to build a tele and not one of those ugly strats. You should all take it as a compliment! :cool:
     
    AAT65, Mike Simpson and RogerC like this.

  18. Honza992

    Honza992 TDPRI Member

    Age:
    47
    42
    Aug 6, 2015
    Nottingham, UK
    That's great, thanks Rex. I'll take a look and get back to you.
     

  19. Honza992

    Honza992 TDPRI Member

    Age:
    47
    42
    Aug 6, 2015
    Nottingham, UK
    Tk
    Cheers Roger, I couldn't have put it better myself.
     

  20. Mr Green Genes

    Mr Green Genes Tele-Afflicted

    Feb 23, 2016
    MI
    Unfortunately, there are probably more who don't read a post before commenting on it than do.
     

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