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Breaking in New speakers?

Discussion in 'Amp Central Station' started by iancain123, Apr 20, 2017.

  1. soulman969

    soulman969 Telefied Ad Free Member

    Mar 20, 2011
    Englewood, CO
    Then your good to go. Play away. In any event Emi rates the power handling capability of their speakers fairly conservatively. It would take some serious abuse or neglect to destroy one like playing a speaker rated at 50w in a 100w amp all night long at high volumes.
     
  2. JD0x0

    JD0x0 Friend of Leo's

    Age:
    27
    Feb 22, 2009
    New York
    Weber suggests 'warming up' the voice coil with background noise and/or low volume playing before hitting them hard, during break in
     
  3. soulman969

    soulman969 Telefied Ad Free Member

    Mar 20, 2011
    Englewood, CO

    I think your request is reasonable but few of us would even think to do it and fewer yet have the capabilities to create such a recording that might adequately capture differences that can be heard through computer speakers and maybe not even through head phones. However there may be some recording or videos done well enough in a studio to demonstrate it.

    As telemnemonics posts some just think the speaker sounds bad and move on to yet another speaker or if the buyer is somewhat inexperienced and has nothing to compare it to he may not even realize it and still may not even after the break in if it's taken place subtlety over several weeks or more. I believe it's commonly accepted enough by musicians to say that it's more than just a myth.
     
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  5. soulman969

    soulman969 Telefied Ad Free Member

    Mar 20, 2011
    Englewood, CO

    That's another method some will use. Hook up a sound source through the amps aux in and let it play away for hours on end for as loud as is reasonable given it's location. That works too.
     
  6. Mr Green Genes

    Mr Green Genes Tele-Afflicted

    Feb 23, 2016
    MI
    ^ Good analogy. Well said.
     
  7. Mr Green Genes

    Mr Green Genes Tele-Afflicted

    Feb 23, 2016
    MI
    Ted Weber suggested turning the amp on and just letting the amp hum come through the speaker at low volume for a minute or so, then playing quiet scales all the way up and down the neck for a minute, then turning it up a bit and repeating the scales, gradually increasing the volume over a period of about 20 minutes or so, before opening up the amp.

    Another one of Ted's suggestions, if you have speakers in multiples of two, was to temporarily wire half of the speakers (eg one of two, two of four, etc) with the wires reversed, so that one of each pair is out of phase with the second of the pair. The speakers can be played at very high volume in almost complete silence, due to phase cancellation. The speakers are vibrating as if they're being played very loud, but they're making almost no sound. That way the neighbors don't get sick of hearing Bach's Toccata and Fugue in D Minor for 10 hours straight.

    (by the way, the organ music thing for break in was another suggestion of his- no drums or percussion, the full range of frequencies, bla bla bla)
     
    soulman969 likes this.
  8. soulman969

    soulman969 Telefied Ad Free Member

    Mar 20, 2011
    Englewood, CO
    Dminor, the saddest of all keys. How depressing. But I imagine Bach would at least be more enjoyable than 10 hours of Nigel Tufnel doing "Lick My Love Pump". :lol:
     
  9. telemnemonics

    telemnemonics Poster Extraordinaire

    Age:
    57
    Mar 2, 2010
    Maine
    Somehow I missed the Weber out of phase suggestion when looking into alternate methods of break in.
    He has a calculation for determining the correct AC voltage to break a speaker in on a variac or AC transformer, and I bought a 24v AC wall wart to break in an Eminence Tonker. It was maybe a little more voltage than Weber suggested, but I didn't like the speaker at all and wasn't willing to play it for 20 hours just in case it might sound useful.
    Wired it up in the garage and left it loudly humming.
    The next morning the transformer was dead and the speaker still sounded harsh.
    I still have a Weber speaker that's supposed to be a sort of high power Jensen with a huge magnet and 2" VC. 4 ohms perfect for a 1x12 Bassman combo. I love good brown and gold label Jensens! Bought it used, and still haven't broken it in yet after 12-14 years.
    Sounds like a VC glued to a 2x4.

    Now I'm curious to try out of phase break in!
    Maybe this would be a good time to buy a nice used B9 pedal I have no legit use for?
     
  10. W.L.Weller

    W.L.Weller Tele-Meister

    131
    May 20, 2014
    Queens
    Unless yr Blues Jr. was modded with an additional output stage, there's no way you're going to blow that Red White & Blues playing regular guitar sounds. I have that speaker in an open-back 1x12, currently being used by the keyboard player with my Yamaha G100 head. The RW&Bs is paired with an 8ohm bass cab, so the amp is operating at its preferred impedance, and we play wide open. After 3 hours, the RW&Blues magnet isn't even warm to the touch (admittedly, this has been during the colder months, but I wouldn't worry at all) If you want to send me yr speaker, I'll give it the keyboard player treatment for however many hours you'd like.
     
  11. JustABluesGuy

    JustABluesGuy Tele-Holic

    Age:
    59
    838
    Sep 2, 2016
    Houston, TX
    Like I said believe what you like. I hear very similar arguments from believers in Bigfoot. Millions of people believe in Bigfoot, but that doesn't make Bigfoot real.

    People swear they have seen Bigfoot, but they have a hard time getting good photos, or any DNA evidence at all.

    Until I see evidence, I will assume that no such being exists. I'm open to being convinced otherwise, as I am with every other position I hold.

    Anecdotal evidence and arguments from popularity just don't meet my standards of evidence.

    I have nothing at all against Bigfoot believers. It would be great if Bigfoot did exist! There just isn't any good evidence that I have seen.

    Take care!
     
    ponce likes this.
  12. jimash

    jimash Tele-Afflicted

    Nov 5, 2013
    NJ
    Before I got the New 68 CPR, I had heard some very bad clanky clunky, sounds like it's gonna break speakers in the amps, in stores.
    When I got mine I followed advice from CElestion, and played it nice at varying volumes for a couple of weeks before cranking it up to 5. The speaker sounds good. I still might get a better one, but it sounds better than the ripping sound of the abused ones in the stores
     
  13. scottser

    scottser Tele-Meister

    306
    Mar 6, 2009
    dublin
    i did a bit of research last week on the v30 as i picked one up for home use. it turns out that there are 3 types of vintage 30. the first is the ubiquitous speaker that celestion produce, one they make specifically for mesa and another they make specifically for marshall. they'll all have the same markings but are different specs and voicings.
     
  14. mauer62

    mauer62 Tele-Holic

    Age:
    54
    719
    Aug 29, 2016
    Oregon
    I thought breaking them in was cranking it to 11.
     
    JustABluesGuy likes this.
  15. screamin eagle

    screamin eagle Friend of Leo's

    Oct 9, 2008
    S. CA
    If the speakers rated wattage is more than the amps than I wouldn't worry about it. I don't operate from the standpoint that the speaker NEEDS to be double the wattage of the amp, but a 30 watt speaker being pushed by a 25-30 watt amp might be a little too close, if you're cranking it all the time.
     
    JustABluesGuy likes this.
  16. soulman969

    soulman969 Telefied Ad Free Member

    Mar 20, 2011
    Englewood, CO
    Hmmmm, strange parallel and not exactly one I would have made but so be it.

    At what point does evidence become more than just anecdotal? Does the fact that most players do believe speakers will break over time and their sound will improve count at all? If even those who design and manufacture the speakers make recommendations for their break in does that count at all? When it comes right down to it I'd say the evidence is far more than just anecdotal or simply based on a popular myth.

    You're certainly entitled to believe any thing you like but I still reserve the right to disagree with your opinion based on fact. I do and that's based on nothing else than my own experience of over 40 years plus. I have heard the difference and it's been pretty well supported by many other sources not just message board posters and junkies.

    But that said I don't care to debate it with you either. It would only end up being another circular debate because I have no way of supplying you with a quality recording of what my ears can hear and from your perspective that's the only evidence you'll accept. That wraps it up then.
     
    JustABluesGuy likes this.
  17. JustABluesGuy

    JustABluesGuy Tele-Holic

    Age:
    59
    838
    Sep 2, 2016
    Houston, TX
    @soulman969, I simply posted my understanding, and was immediately taken to task about it. I was "corrected" by believers who disagree, and that's fine. I really don't want to argue about it.
    But now two believers have said that they don't want to argue, "after" they started an argument.

    It also isn't my fault I have never noticed this phenomenon personally, nor that no one seems to be able to demonstrate it for me. It isn't my fault that believers use similar evidence and arguments that millions of Bigfoot and alien abduction believers do as well, but it is telling.

    I feel no need to defend my experiences. You claim the same, so I guess we can just agree to disagree on it.

    You've heard speaker breaking many times, but I never have. I believe you hear it.

    Do you believe that I don't as well? I'm not trying to convince anyone of anything. I really don't care. I am getting a lot of posts by folks trying to convince me.

    Again, I am open to being convinced, but no one has tried very hard. I need evidence before I concede that I was wrong and change my mind. If I could hear it. A scientific study that shows it to be true would probably sway me over.

    I just get things like it's "common knowledge" which is uselesss. Or that's what most people believe, which is also useless to me. Even speaker manufacturers recommendations are quite suspect to me.

    Going along with the idea of speaker break in would reduce their return rate if they can convince people (who are already primed to believe) people to just "wait" a while, and just use them until they break in (i.e., their ears adjust.). If I am making speakers and notice a demand for "pre-broken in" speakers, I would be an idiot to NOT offer it!

    It's just free money if not true. Claim you did it, and just ship them out!

    Anyway, I'm willing to be convinced. Show me recordings done in a controlled, scientific manner that demonstrates this would be convincing for me. Any scientific study would be convincing, but I can't find any, and believers aren't offering any. Just anecdotes and appeals to the popularity of the position which, unfortunately are scientifically useless for establishing the truth.

    And do tell, what would it take to convince you that you are mistaken?
     
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  18. telemnemonics

    telemnemonics Poster Extraordinaire

    Age:
    57
    Mar 2, 2010
    Maine
    In addition to those three "types" you could add that the current V-30s are made in china.
    All the samples I have are older and made in UK, and all are Celestion branded. Current V-30s have different labeling.
    I've read about the 65w vs 70w rating between the Celestion labeled and the Mesa labeled, but AFAIK they are (were) not built differently. Maybe Mesa watts are kinder and gentler?
    I've also read that they are rated for 65w in open back, or 70w in closed back cabs. Hence the Marshall V-30 loaded 4x12s rated for 280 watts.
     
  19. theprofessor

    theprofessor Tele-Afflicted

    Aug 8, 2016
    Chattanooga, TN
    Hey JustABluesGuy: I find this conversation fascinating! We are all reliant upon authorities of some kind--at least we normally are. Is there some reason you think that the "authorities" in this case--say, T.A. Weber or whoever--are making things up when they specify methods and duration of speaker break-in? Of course an independent study could be done, but it seems to me that for many of these "authorities," it is a phenomenon that does not need proving, because (so they think, I'm supposing) it is common knowledge of the trade. Perhaps I'm wrong about that. But, anyway, it made me wonder: why not just take the word of "the authorities" on it? Is there some reason to think they are untrustworthy or self-interested?
     
    JustABluesGuy likes this.
  20. JustABluesGuy

    JustABluesGuy Tele-Holic

    Age:
    59
    838
    Sep 2, 2016
    Houston, TX
    Hi Professor!

    I'm sorry, But the appeal to authority is a common logical fallacy. "Common knowledge" is a variation of the appeal to popularity or "bandwagon" fallacy. It doesn't matter if the whole word believes something. That doesn't make it true. For example, virtually everyone "knew" the earth was flat. It was a very popular position.

    I rely as much as possible on the scientific method. There are "experts" in science, but no "authorities" as most people understand it. All good science is peer reviewed, and is not based on the views of any authority.

    The data being presented is far more important than "who" is presenting it. Authorities are often wrong. The facts are always there for anyone to discover for themselves.

    I have made no appeals to authority, unless one considers science the authority. I have made no appeals to popularity.

    Weber is not a speaker authority to me. He's just a guy who "might" believe in speaker break in (We don't really "know" that he does) who also happens make speakers. If you want to see him as an authority, that's fine, but the bottom line is, that appeals to authority are still logical fallacies, no matter how authoritative they may be.

    Again, from a scientific viewpoint, even if he is the most knowledgeable person on the planet when it comes to speakers, he could still be wrong.

    That's why the appeal to authority is a logical fallacy, and not an acceptable scientific method for determining the truth.

    Evidence, experimentation, and peer review however are. When Weber does a peer reviewed scientific paper on the subject, I would love to check it out and decide if I agree with his conclusions. That hasn't happened.

    I will often conditionally accept the "opinions" of experts in a field because I can't be an expert in every (any!) field. Their views will still need the scientific consensus of peer review before I consider them to be "facts" though.

    Personally, I'm not 100% convinced of anything at all. All of my "beliefs" are tentative, and subject to change apon the presentation of new, convincing evidence.

    That's what I would like to see, and that is exactly what is missing in this discussion.

    I don't think anyone is "making up" anything. There is no conspiracy here. Perhaps just people who are mistaken because they didn't rely on the scientific method to reach their conclusions? I think believers truly believe. Firmly believing things doesn't make them right from an objective, scientific standpoint.

    I highly recommend doing a search for "Common logical fallacies" and "the scientific method" for helpful information for determining the truth in any situation.

    Without science we are all prone to myth making.

    Take care!
     
  21. soulman969

    soulman969 Telefied Ad Free Member

    Mar 20, 2011
    Englewood, CO
    No, I take you at your word that you have never experienced it just as you do that I have. It's entirely possible that two people could listen to something and not hear the same thing. In fact it seems to happen quite often around here and if it didn't we'd have a lot less to discuss. LOL

    All I can offer is my own numerous experiences with it and what I guess might be called a preponderance of evidence by amateurs and professionals alike who have experienced it along with those who suggest or recommend it at the manufacturing level. And actually there are sources who do offer speakers that have been broken in which would also tend to confirm my position but you seem highly suspicious of all this and the manufacturers and their motives as well. Since when did Texas also claim to be the "Show Me State"? ;)

    But......you aren't the only poster I've seen post they did not believe that speakers need to be broken in either however I would say that you all are in a minority.

    I hope you didn't feel I was taking you to task. I just enjoy a good discussion based on facts but how those are established and accepted is always a matter of debate in itself and so it is with you and I and all we can agree on is your experience vs mine. Agreeing to disagree is actually the best escape from a circular debate. It's kinda the no harm no foul approach.

    In the end there is no resolution here since I can't un-hear what I have obviously heard and you can't speak to that which you've never heard. For each of us that's our reality so as I said it kinda ends there. If I can locate anything you would accept that does demonstrate the difference I'll post it. I just know that I have no ability to make such a recording personally and I also lack any new speakers of the exact same type to contrast with one that had been "played in". A year ago I had the speakers but still no way to make a recording that would hold up as evidence. I'm not into home recording vs live performance.

    So on we go and to each his own. :D
     
    JustABluesGuy likes this.
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