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Bone Voyage

Discussion in 'Tele Home Depot' started by preeb, Dec 10, 2014.

  1. jipp

    jipp Friend of Leo's

    looking good. in this case i like the ebony classic style over the les paul one.. iv seen people complain about that old method used on the les pauls.. i forget what the problem was but it did not last the following year. at any rate whatever the problem was im sure you would of fixed it for this any how.. i guess i just like the traditional wood bridge like the one you made.. thank you for sharing... that CNC machine is pretty darn handy i see. :D
    chris.
     

  2. jonal335

    jonal335 Tele-Holic

    658
    Jan 8, 2011
    vancouver island bc
    Gil, you're inspiring me again...always great to see a new guitar and thread from you!
     

  3. Crafty Fox

    Crafty Fox Tele-Afflicted

    Nov 25, 2011
    Perth Australia
    Me too!
     

  4. bloggs

    bloggs TDPRI Member

    65
    Jun 24, 2012
    Melbourne, Australia
    Just something out of left field here. Cellos have a tone post wedged between the front and back under one leg of the bridge. It is supposed to transfer the vibrations from the bridge to the back of the cello and increase the resonance of the cello - or something like that.

    Would it be worth trying here, or do you think it will dampen the sound more than resonate in this case?

    Great build and looking forward to its progress with your master building qualities preeb.

    bloggs
     

  5. preeb

    preeb Poster Extraordinaire Vendor Member

    Age:
    52
    Sep 10, 2008
    Sonoran Desert
    Thanks jipp.
    Both options will look good eventually, but I agree that the classic wooden tailpiece has a certain organic charm (-;
    The 52 LP's came with a low neck angle and they had to run the strings under the bridge preventing muted playing. This was said to be a design error and they fixed it the following year introducing the wraparound bridge and a higher neck angle. There was nothing wrong with the tailpiece itself.
     

  6. preeb

    preeb Poster Extraordinaire Vendor Member

    Age:
    52
    Sep 10, 2008
    Sonoran Desert
    Thanks guys, my pleasure as always.
     

  7. preeb

    preeb Poster Extraordinaire Vendor Member

    Age:
    52
    Sep 10, 2008
    Sonoran Desert
    What you are describing is called the "soul" of the instrument.
    It is implemented in classical orchestral stringed instruments but guitars are different. I believe the main difference is resulting from the different ways the sound is created. On a cello the bow controls the length of the note but on guitars it's mainly the natural sustain (in clean). If you compare the plucked note on both you will hear a big difference in the sustain (decay) and the response time (attack). a "soul" on a guitar will pretty much kill the sustain but will make the note louder.
     

  8. bloggs

    bloggs TDPRI Member

    65
    Jun 24, 2012
    Melbourne, Australia
    Yeah, what you say makes sense. I didn't consider the difference between plucking or picking and bowing.

    bloggs
     

  9. preeb

    preeb Poster Extraordinaire Vendor Member

    Age:
    52
    Sep 10, 2008
    Sonoran Desert
    I just recieved a heads up to the following thread:
    http://www.mylespaul.com/forums/luthiers-corner/321979-new-yaron-build-archtop.html#post6652636

    If I may, I'd like to ask the guys on MLP to come and post here.
    I think it's better to have it done in a single thread and I have opened this thread in order to discuss this build openly so I'd love to get your input and thoughts here if you feel comfortable doing so (positively). TDPRI is a great place too (-;

    In regards to the bracing point that has been brought up in the above thread link.. I will reply here if you don't mind hoping you are still reading this thread and I'd love you to reply and discuss your opinions here.

    There are a few construction design factors in that thread that were tied together in a wrong way I believe (cracks, strength, tone, wood orientation..etc..).

    Bracing is being used on many types of wooden instruments and there's no single rule that applies. Concentrating the discussion on guitars, there are two main categories: Flat tops and Arched tops. Since this build has an arched top and will be used mostly amplified I'd like to reply accordingly.

    X bracing is used on the top alone and its purpose is NOT to prevent cracks (-;
    I've been repairing archtops for 30 years and I have not yet seen an X brace preventing a top from cracking. What I did see a lot more than cracks is a loose brace that needed to be glued back.

    Most archtops have a maple back with no bracing and they don't tend to crack as much as quarter sawn Spruce so hard maple will make a stronger top to begin with and will not even need any bracing, especially on a 13" wide guitar.

    So why did I use X bracing to begin with?
    The main role of the X bracing on an archtop is to create a stiffer (less flexible) center area right under the bridge legs. this is done to prevent the pressed area from deforming over time (on flat tops it prevents from warping toward the neck). If we just used a thicker center the pressure areas will simply move along to the thinner areas around it so using a long brace creates a well distributed release of the down force. The problem with bracing is that it kills the free vibrating properties of the top so this is why it needs to be shaped and tuned in a certain way.

    As the top vibrates the center area is not flexing at all, it is simply moving up and down but the outer areas are flexing a lot and mostly on the re curve section perimeter. This is why we create the recurve thinner and the center thicker. The bracing need to do their job without interfering with the above (as much as possible) so when we tune them we remove most of the bracing material from the ends near the recurves and leave the main mass in the center. They will still keep the dish firm enough under the bridge's down force and long enough to disperse it over the top.

    Tonewise, there are two common patterns for bracing, X and Parallel.
    Both patterns are based on running the brace as long as possible to get an even distribution of the force. X takes it diagonally and Parallel takes it along the length of the instrument. The other common attribute is that they both run directly under the legs of the bridge. The Parallel bracing less interferes with the vibrating of the top because most of the vibration's axis are the sides which run along the length of the top while the X bracing cut diagonally across and make the top a little less flexible along the length axis.
    How does it affect the tone (EQ)? putting it in a simple way, the low frequency vibrations have much more energy (longer waves) and can come across the bracing's choking easily but the high frequencies have much less energy (short waves) and this is why they get filtered out. so in general, the X bracing, being a more choking pattern, will result with less highs, a warmer tone and a little less attack while the parallel pattern is brighter and has faster response (attack).
    Both patterns can be adjusted within a reasonable range. A closed narrower X bracing will sound brighter and a tapered Parallel bracing will sound warmer, but this also has a lot to do with the size and shape of the guitar remembering that the pivot point is always under the bridge leg.
    There's a common belief that the bracing helps to distribute the vibrations from the bridge to the top, but I'm not sure this is the case. When tapping and comparing tops and backs I never feel the backs are any less responsive to taps at the bridge area.

    Wood orientation - it's only natural to use long grain for long bracing when cutting them... so I wouldn't expect to see any bracing done any other way but it would be inaccurate (at best) to say that a bracing that is made from hard maple but does not have a perfect length grain or is not quarter sawn will fail.
    Most bracing are made from long grain QS Spruce. The bracing on the Bone Voyage are Hard maple and rift (which is very far from short grain!).
    Truth is, the Bone bracing are stronger and less flexible than a standard Spruce bracing.
    Combine that with the integrated construction (no glue) and most chances they will perform better and can be shaped smaller providing better tone.

    Both maple top and back dummies were made and tested. I flexed them hard, dropped and hammered them and they are very strong as a result of their smaller size and material. The orientation is a tone preference and I prefer a flat sawn plate over quarter.
    They are not weaker and less prone to cracks along the grain.

    Like I mentioned earlier in the build, I chose to use the X bracing pattern for its warmer tone.

    There's a lot more to it when it comes to tuning the plates, but I was only responding to the bracing properties as discussed in the other forum.. but we will get to that.
     

  10. Barnaby

    Barnaby TDPRI Member

    46
    Jun 16, 2011
    Tokyo
    Gil, thank you! :D As someone who posted in the thread on MLP, I am very interested by your response and think that there is a lot to ponder in terms of guitar construction and philosophy.

    Over on the other site, I wrote something pondering many of the questions you have answered, whilst making it clear (I hope) that I was fairly unsure of what your results might be primarily because of my own inexperience as a builder. Here are the main points:

    I first saw such bracing done a while back by another builder and was really impressed then, but, on reflection, came to wonder about its long-term viability and sonic purpose.

    If Gil were using spruce, I suspect there would be a lot less value to such braces, but they do add mass to the top, changing its tuning, and maple is a lot tougher.

    I am only going by what I have read on the subject and my own minor experiments with bracing on flat tops, but I am tempted to wonder, on a small instrument like this, whether or not the integral bracing might have a positive effect, albeit a different one from a more traditional bracing approach.

    Basically, I suppose what I am suggesting is that it might well do something, but I don't know what that something might be.

    I wish I could play the resulting instrument and hear the results for myself, but also bet that everyone who reads one of your threads feels the same way. I am sure it will be magnificent!
     

  11. '59_Standard

    '59_Standard Tele-Holic

    851
    Jan 27, 2010
    Worldwide
    I think his comment on cracking was: if a top starts to crack it may then go through the bracing too. (Me - If something needs repairing it needs repairing so its kinda mute imho).

    Not that he's built one - he linked to something he read on the net.
     

  12. preeb

    preeb Poster Extraordinaire Vendor Member

    Age:
    52
    Sep 10, 2008
    Sonoran Desert
    Thanks Barnaby, I saw your post in MLP and loved it. Positive minds tend to think straight (-;
    You are more than welcome to visit and play the Bone Voyage when it's done. I can only hope it turns out as planned but it's hard to tell at this early stage of the build.
     

  13. preeb

    preeb Poster Extraordinaire Vendor Member

    Age:
    52
    Sep 10, 2008
    Sonoran Desert
    Cracks rarely self develop on flat sawn plates. From my tests it takes a pretty hard impact to crack the maple but nevertheless, bracing have very little to do with that because they only cover a very small portion of the top and the crack can happen anywhere. Most of the natural age cracks I've seen on plates were opened glue seems and that is why I'm avoiding unnecessary glue joints.

    Regarding your second remark, I don't think it's relevant. One can have an opinion without building anything and if it's being put in a positive way then we can discuss it between us. I too didn't understand the tone and phrasing of that post, but I've already learned that many people don't come through well in writing.. it's sometimes in the mind of the reader and many times something harmless appears evil when interpreted wrongly by the reader.
    But.. alas.. in the internet age we write more than we speak and not all of us are poets (-;
     

  14. preeb

    preeb Poster Extraordinaire Vendor Member

    Age:
    52
    Sep 10, 2008
    Sonoran Desert
    Time to do the first step of the tuning (out of 3).
    In this first step I downsize the bracing, enlarge the dish to stop at the re-curve area and roughly tune it to tap the same all around the dish.

    I use this ring to hold the plates flat as I work them

    [​IMG]


    like this

    [​IMG]


    I mark 2" from the cross section

    [​IMG]


    and chisel down the bracing all the way to nothing at the re-curve

    [​IMG]


    as I'm removing material I test the flexibility of the top and tap it all around the dish to get a more of less even note

    [​IMG]



    Then I chisel out more material from the bracing to fine tune the top

    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]


    and enlarge the dish, creating a rounding towards the recurve area

    [​IMG]


    Like that. At this point the top is well balanced and taps very loud and clear (this is going to change soon...)

    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]



    The back plate is much easier to prepare and I only need to enlarge the dish and smooth it.
    (Ken,) at this point the tone of the top plate has changed quite a bit and the back dish remained about the same.

    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]

    Plates are now ready for gluing.

    [​IMG]
     

  15. preeb

    preeb Poster Extraordinaire Vendor Member

    Age:
    52
    Sep 10, 2008
    Sonoran Desert
    I glue the top plate first and leave the back open. You will see why in a minute..

    Since I cut the plates 0.1" larger I now need to align the top over the mahogany rim

    [​IMG]


    and double check..

    [​IMG]


    two locating pin holes are drilled, one at the neck joint and the other within the binding chanel area at the bottom. They will be cut out later of course..

    [​IMG]


    I insert small plastic plated steel wires (to prevent rust stains with the water based hide glue)

    [​IMG]


    My first choice for glue was UF but I have changed my mind and will be using Hide glue just in case the plates will need to be removed in the future for repairs.
    I will be using a very strong hide glue (315 gram strength) which means that the wood will break before the glue joint... (-; but that gives me a super short open time (about 20 seconds) so it's going to be a race..

    [​IMG]

    Flipping again to verify the alignment is perfect

    [​IMG]


    Into the gluing jig

    [​IMG]


    higher than normal glue temperature to extend the open time

    [​IMG]


    and heating the gluing surface, once again, to extend the open time

    [​IMG]


    I apply the glue and quickly tighten the bolts to moderate presure

    [​IMG]


    There's a spacer that raises the jig plate above the dish and pushed down on the outer area alone

    [​IMG]


    It will be set aside to cure for 4-5 hours
     
    Last edited: Dec 14, 2014

  16. preeb

    preeb Poster Extraordinaire Vendor Member

    Age:
    52
    Sep 10, 2008
    Sonoran Desert
    As it cures I will prepare some other parts.
    The binding for the body is going to be multiply celluloid B/W/Tortoise and W/Tortoise for the neck so I cut them to length and sand them for better adhesion

    [​IMG]


    Neck will be made from Brazilian Rosewood.
    Rough sawed

    [​IMG]


    sanded and sliced the usual way.. see the Bone-I thread for more details as I don't wish to repeat this. This billet used to be a cattle fence post in Bahia and has been exposed outdoors to the elements for many years so it's extremely lightweight and dry and the color is a little faded but once it will be oiled it will turn very dark and beautiful. (I got the other posts as well..LOL)

    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]



    Fingerboard is also Brazilian Rosewood. It's cut a little narrower to leave room for the binding which are 0.1" as opposed to the standard 0.04" cream binding used on the Bone-I.

    [​IMG]

    Different shape on the body end..

    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]


    Here's the neck binding

    [​IMG]
     

  17. preeb

    preeb Poster Extraordinaire Vendor Member

    Age:
    52
    Sep 10, 2008
    Sonoran Desert
    Body is out of the jig.

    [​IMG]


    You can now see the gap between the plate and the blocks

    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]


    The roundover did its job beautifully.. no glue squeeze-outs on the top at all..

    [​IMG]


    Remember I said the initial first top tuning is going to change? it did, a lot.
    This is why I added the second tuning stage for the top and I will do it before the back is glued. The added mass of the sides around the plate changes the tuning of the top completely. I will be doing the second tuning tomorrow (too tired today..) but here's a little clip to demonstrate that.. I only tap the outer areas that sounded the same before gluing. Pretty amazing huh?




    BTW, here's the normal tap tone of the plate as it came off of the CNC.
    Note how loud and deep the tap tone is and how responsive it is. The attack is better than anything I've heard on a larger plate (I tap with my soft finger and not with my fingernail.. (-; ) and it will only get better and better as the build advances, especially after I do the third tuning on the outer re-curves. I may even need to diminish the resonance a little to prevent feedback when played through a loud amp.. we'll see. But the tap tone is rediculously good for a 13" top... Hope it gets through with the youtube sound.

     

  18. tnt423

    tnt423 Tele-Meister

    427
    Oct 14, 2008
    StLouis area
    Wow, Just beautiful! Amazing that you would put that rosewood on a prototype. My hat is off to you sir! Thanks as always for sharing.
     

  19. preeb

    preeb Poster Extraordinaire Vendor Member

    Age:
    52
    Sep 10, 2008
    Sonoran Desert
    Thanks! but what can I possibly do?!
    The proto needs to be identical to build specs...and I got lots of BRRW in stock so it's fine (-;
     

  20. LtKojak

    LtKojak Tele-Meister

    138
    Sep 10, 2013
    Milano, Italy
    That tapping note is almost a G! Is the back going to be a D?
     

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