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Anybody mixed nitro with waterborne lacquer to achieve relic finish?

Discussion in 'Finely Finished' started by yanni, Apr 25, 2017.

  1. yanni

    yanni Tele-Meister

    Age:
    41
    109
    Jun 19, 2016
    Germany
    I would to stop shooting nitro since I think its just to risky doing this at home in my basement. I am already using waterborne lacquer as a primer and sanding sealer which works great. The tint that nitro gives me I can easily do with tinting the waterborne lacquer.

    What the waterborne top coat does not give give is the cracking of the lacquer. I heard that Gibson is adding up to 7% nitro to their lacquer. Maybe this would be an option since it reduces the amount of nitro I have to use a big time. I am thinking of adding something like 10%. That way I think it should be way less toxic and flammable.

    Has anybody tried this or is there another way to add realistic cracking and maybe even feeling to waterbased finish ?

    Thanks
     

  2. Vizcaster

    Vizcaster Friend of Leo's

    Sep 15, 2007
    Glen Head, NY
    Since waterborne lacquer is an emulsion, I don't see any way that you could mix it with solvent-based nitrocellulose lacquer. Even if they mixed, each would probably cause the other to fail - remember moisture causes nitro to be cloudy (blush), and the strong solvents like acetone in the nitro would soften or strip the waterborne finish.

    Also, modern finishes are formulated not to fail so I'm not sure how you could get them to crack. That said, there's no reason you couldn't try Tom Murphy's utility-knife blade method to simulate spider cracks.

    Not sure what you heard about Gibson; their ad copy continues to hype the fact that they use nitrocellulose lacquer (but of course they don't define that so it could just be one of the solids in a modern formula).

    As far as "realistic...feeling" I'm quite happy with the glide and slip or hand feel of cured Target EM6000, much better than nitro which can get sticky if it isn't fully cured or if your hands are sweaty.
     

  3. Vizcaster

    Vizcaster Friend of Leo's

    Sep 15, 2007
    Glen Head, NY
    BTW you still need ventilation and a cartridge vapor respirator even when shooting waterborne lacquer.
     

  4. yanni

    yanni Tele-Meister

    Age:
    41
    109
    Jun 19, 2016
    Germany
    I have ventilation and cartridge vapor available. But its difficult to do it explosion proof.
     

  5. DrASATele

    DrASATele Poster Extraordinaire

    Jul 6, 2012
    North of Boston

  6. yanni

    yanni Tele-Meister

    Age:
    41
    109
    Jun 19, 2016
    Germany

  7. DrASATele

    DrASATele Poster Extraordinaire

    Jul 6, 2012
    North of Boston
    No dig meant Yanni, just busting your chops. I know your point in this thread is the crazing that happens with Nitro. It sounds like the mixing thing between the 2 different types of finish is myth. Thinking along the lines of what Viz said and knowing that it is true having seen the separation myself there's really only 1 other way to tell and that's to try.
     

  8. yanni

    yanni Tele-Meister

    Age:
    41
    109
    Jun 19, 2016
    Germany
    I would like to correct what I wrote here. Gibson is mixing acrylic lacquer with nitro. So both solvent base. Not waterbased. This will probably work. But I think solvent based acrylic is not really less harmful than nitro ?
     

  9. DrASATele

    DrASATele Poster Extraordinaire

    Jul 6, 2012
    North of Boston
    They're probably about equal in terms of how harmful.

    Thinking about your initial question, I wonder if using one of the nitro or acrylic solvent thinners would cause water bourne finish to craze?
    My thinking being that water as a thinner makes water based products, for the most part, take longer to dry. What if a thinner worked like it does with Nitro Lacquer speeding up the dry/gas off period? With Nitro Lacquer you can get crazing from over thinning as well as temp changes, the over thinning makes the nitro more brittle. So, could that quick gas off in conjunction with a water bourne finish still happen? ...and would it produce relic like results... IDK, but I kind of want to try.
     

  10. yanni

    yanni Tele-Meister

    Age:
    41
    109
    Jun 19, 2016
    Germany

  11. Silverface

    Silverface Poster Extraordinaire Platinum Supporter

    Age:
    65
    Mar 2, 2003
    Lawndale CA
    You are misinterpreting something - and confused about "nitro"

    "Waterborne lacquer" is a specific type of product not compatible with "nitro" lacquers.

    "Nitro" has been "acrylic/nitrocellulose blend" except for a VERY few uncommon products not found in the normal supply chain. Literally every "Nitro" lacquer commonly used in finishing has been a nitro-acrylic blend since the 1920's. They have to be - pure nitro is far too stiff for most applications.

    "Waterborne" and "solvent" lacquers cannot be intermixed. They use solvents (in addition to water) that are not inter-soluble and the resins/additives are incompatible. They are completely different formulations.
     

  12. Dacious

    Dacious Friend of Leo's

    Mar 16, 2003
    Godzone
    Lacquer is any paint that uses acetone as thinner for the pigments and binder. Water borne paints use water. The two are immiscible. i.e. do not mix. You would be spraying an emulsion - droplets of water-based paint in paint.

    Most modeen car paints (and therefore guitar paints) today have water bases. While you're doing away with VOC (acetone) you can still screw your lungs up bad without breathers etc water based finishes are toxic on flash-off, too. Modern binders will make checking less likely.
     

  13. Silverface

    Silverface Poster Extraordinaire Platinum Supporter

    Age:
    65
    Mar 2, 2003
    Lawndale CA
    NOT true! Nearly every guitar-specific coating available to consumers is a solvent-type acrylic/nitro lacquer, polyurethane or polyester. And car finishes that you can buy at retail - especially aerosols - are almost all solvent=type lacquers or enamels.
     
    Buckocaster51 likes this.

  14. Buckocaster51

    Buckocaster51 Super Moderator Staff Member Ad Free Member

    Age:
    66
    Jan 6, 2005
    Iowa USA
    Admin Post
    The man knows of what he speaks.

    Automakers may, and probably do, use water borne finishes. A few repair shops do. But the VAST majority of what you buy at retail is still solvent based.
     

  15. Vizcaster

    Vizcaster Friend of Leo's

    Sep 15, 2007
    Glen Head, NY
    Not to put too fine a point on it, but water based finishes are already emulsions. Similar technology gave us "latex" paint (which our friends across the pond correctly call "emulsion"). My first guess at what would happen if you mixed too much solvent into a water borne coating is that it would "break" the emulsion and destroy the properties of the mixture so it would no longer be possible to spray it on as a finish.

    If you want waterbased finish to craze, you can abuse the pH incompatibility. Sometimes waterbased finish over Zinnser BIN shellac- based primer will craze and crack, but the appearance is more of a dry lakebed effect and not a convincing aged lacquer checking.
     

  16. R. Stratenstein

    R. Stratenstein Doctor of Teleocity Silver Supporter

    Aug 3, 2010
    Loganville, Ga.
    This just illustrates the unnaturalness and evil inherent in relic- ing a guitar. Put a nice nitro solvent finish on it, then start living healthy so you'll be around in 30 years or so when the guitar will have relic-Ed itself, naturally and honestly. Mixing a water based paint with a solvent based one is more likely to result in an unfinished mess dripping with useless, toxic chemicals than anything good you can imagine.
     
    Silverface likes this.

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