Asher Guitars WD Music Products Amplified Parts Mod Kits DIY Nordstarnd Pickups Warmoth.com
Asher Guitars WD Music Products Amplified Parts Mod Kits DIY Nordstarnd Pickups Warmoth.com
Asher Guitars WD Music Products Amplified Parts Mod Kits DIY Nordstarnd Pickups Warmoth.com

50's Style Les Paul build

Discussion in 'Tele Home Depot' started by TenaciousP, Apr 22, 2016.

  1. OrioleTooter

    OrioleTooter NEW MEMBER!

    Age:
    60
    2
    Oct 17, 2017
    SeaXXle
    I was watching a video about building one of those Chinese L.P. kits. The fella would mix the dye and stain the cap first. He would sand off the dye to get a smooth transition burst. The laquer would be shot accordingly and a great burst was created.
     

  2. moosie

    moosie Doctor of Teleocity Silver Supporter

    Age:
    60
    Jul 18, 2010
    Western Connecticut
    Are you essentially saying that I can buy a new cherry burst LP, and leave it out in full sun all day - just ONE day - and be well on the way to a lemon burst? Or does the clear somehow "soak up" the UV and slow the process, while yellowing the clear at the same time?

    That seems like such a short time exposure...
     
    Last edited: Nov 3, 2017

  3. Huddy

    Huddy Tele-Meister

    Age:
    34
    285
    Nov 5, 2016
    Newport News, VA
    1509713541075.jpg

    I'm saving up for one of these bad boys.
     
    Last edited: Nov 3, 2017
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  4. TenaciousP

    TenaciousP Tele-Meister

    381
    Apr 1, 2016
    Arkansas
    No. I am not saying that at all! :lol: I believe Gibson now uses dyes and/or lacquer that is not reactive to UV light. And probably has for a very long time now. From a manufacturers stand point, color fading would be considered a flaw. Kinda like lacquer checking. I think they use lacquer that’s not susceptible to that either. What I have read is that Gibson used aniline dyes in the 50’s which are not very color fast. Especially the red. The new Gibson historics may be done with aniline dyes and might fade. But I don’t think regular Production models will. I’m not sure if clear lacquer build up slows the process or not. I’m mostly not putting much clear over the test pieces because I’m lazy.:D

    I didn’t really like showing off my mistakes until I have a fix for them, but if you must see with your own eyes, here is one that went very very wrong: :eek:

    60A24008-D73B-44CC-9254-FB309506CBC1.jpeg

    You can see the drastic change when the aniline dyes are exposed to direct UV. This plywood has some really funky flame figuring.:eek: The above example looks horrible, but I feel like I m actually getting much closer on my latest dye mixtures.
     

  5. moosie

    moosie Doctor of Teleocity Silver Supporter

    Age:
    60
    Jul 18, 2010
    Western Connecticut
    Sorry, didn't mean to put words in your mouth. When I think of what you're doing, though, the only rough comparable is the Historic line, and I'm pretty sure they're using aniline dye for that. And that's what they used in the 50s. So, THOSE guitars might have actually noticeably faded after a few open-air gigs in the summer, it's sounding like... Not years and years of hanging in the window...

    I never realized that. Ignore me. Carry on.
     

  6. moosie

    moosie Doctor of Teleocity Silver Supporter

    Age:
    60
    Jul 18, 2010
    Western Connecticut
    One more question. If you do the top and hate it, can you strip it? Or would you need to sand it out? :eek:

    Not ideal of course, and I see you're going to great lengths here. But is that a reasonable safety net?
     

  7. TenaciousP

    TenaciousP Tele-Meister

    381
    Apr 1, 2016
    Arkansas
    I’m sure it could be sanded off. The colored lacquer shouldn’t penetrate in to the wood much at all. Also in my case I sealed the maple with dewaxed clear shellac. That might not me historically accurate, but it soaks in a bit and I think it makes the flame really pop. Other than that, I don’t really have a safety net. I plan to get the color figured out before I spray the actual guitar.

    I hope this link to youtube works. I’ve never tried this before. Anyhow, this guy has a very interesting video showing how he finishes a 50’s burst replica. His technique of layering the blue/brown before the red seems really weird, but I found that it makes a huge difference in how it looks when it fades.

     
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  8. TenaciousP

    TenaciousP Tele-Meister

    381
    Apr 1, 2016
    Arkansas
    Interesting. I’m sure there are a number of different ways to do a sunburst finish. I personally would be afraid of trying to do a burst by dyeing the wood directly. I would be worried that if I messed it up, it would be difficult to remove. I figure colored lacquer probably doesn’t penetrate much at all. So, I can probably sand it off if I need to.
     

  9. smile-4-me

    smile-4-me Tele-Meister

    109
    Apr 15, 2011
    Arkansas
    Hopefully we get some dry days soon so you can keep spraying.
     

  10. moosie

    moosie Doctor of Teleocity Silver Supporter

    Age:
    60
    Jul 18, 2010
    Western Connecticut
    TP, thanks for your patience in responding to my total noob questions. That video was great! I watched the rest in that series, too, as well as his short UF-Bomb sequence.

    I don't have the context to know where he may have done something unusual. It all looked pretty much like magic, to me.

    Very cool stuff.
     

  11. TenaciousP

    TenaciousP Tele-Meister

    381
    Apr 1, 2016
    Arkansas
    For some reason, I always thought you would mix the red, blue and brown together in some ratio. Then spray that over the yellow. But when I tried that, it always faded to a ugly purple color. But with the blue over the yellow and then the red over that, it seems to fade to a much more brown color. It’s weird.
     

  12. moosie

    moosie Doctor of Teleocity Silver Supporter

    Age:
    60
    Jul 18, 2010
    Western Connecticut
    What seems more weird is that Gibson somehow didn't end up with a bunch of purple bursts by 1963... Think they knew back then to do all that UV testing? Or it is perhaps just the fact that Vaschenko is accelerating the fade that makes it different...
     

  13. TenaciousP

    TenaciousP Tele-Meister

    381
    Apr 1, 2016
    Arkansas
    I’m not sure how they sprayed the bursts originally. But the dyes had to have been done in a way so that when the red fades, it looks brown. In the example I showed earlier, I may have had way too much blue in the mix. It was only a small splash in the container in comparison to the red that was in there. But perhaps It should have only a few drops. I am certain that excessive blue is what caused the purple/ burgundy color. I believe, if done correctly, a cherry burst should fade into an ice tea burst.
     
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  14. moosie

    moosie Doctor of Teleocity Silver Supporter

    Age:
    60
    Jul 18, 2010
    Western Connecticut
    In search of the rare '59 Pomegranate Burst... Passion Fruit? :lol:

    Reminds me of my son's father-in-law. He's color blind, and didn't understand until he rode it home why he got such a great deal on a "black" Harley. :)
     

  15. David Barnett

    David Barnett Poster Extraordinaire

    You should save the formula for that burgandy in case you ever have to refinish a Rickenbacker. The colors on your swatch are a good match for my 610-12.
     

  16. magic smoke

    magic smoke TDPRI Member Silver Supporter

    75
    May 28, 2017
    Quantum Entanglement
    I noticed an interesting technique when visiting the Heritage factory in Kalamazoo last winter. When doing bursts they spray the dyes, first a purple-ish color in the burst pattern and then yellow across the whole top. The color mixes to change the tone of the burst. The tour guide might have mentioned that they spray the whole thing with an alcohol afterward to get more depth to the figure. IIRC this one is their "almond" burst. While I can't guarantee this is exactly the way G!%$*N did it in the 50's, this is definitely the same spray booth they used for all of the classics!
    burst1.jpg burst2.png
     

  17. TenaciousP

    TenaciousP Tele-Meister

    381
    Apr 1, 2016
    Arkansas

    Very interesting! I may have to give that technique a try and see how it turns out. Thanks for the info and pics!
     

  18. 2blue2

    2blue2 Tele-Afflicted

    Jul 20, 2013
    Island of Oahu
    The burst is going to be awesome


    Is that all dry paint dust on the floor? No need to ever sweep up I guess.
     

  19. LowThudd

    LowThudd Tele-Afflicted

    Feb 11, 2014
    Sherman Oaks, Ca
    Wow! Very impressive! Can't wait to see your burst.
     

  20. TenaciousP

    TenaciousP Tele-Meister

    381
    Apr 1, 2016
    Arkansas
    I think I read that they changed the red dye in about 1960 or a bit after because they knew the aniline red was fading quickly. Also I’m certain my first tests faded out purple because I had waaaay too much blue in it. Here is my latest test that has been faded for two days in a window (hence the Van Halen stripes :lol:). It was obviously directly against the glass. There is hardly any blue in it. I think it is getting closer to what I’ll after.

    342C34C5-91D2-4F16-B762-D6A93958EDFB.jpeg

    BFF1E1E3-72E6-421C-855C-49A9B3374E7A.jpeg
     
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