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Asher Guitars WD Music Products Amplified Parts Mod Kits DIY Nordstarnd Pickups Warmoth.com
Asher Guitars WD Music Products Amplified Parts Mod Kits DIY Nordstarnd Pickups Warmoth.com

5 way switch with "cocked wah"?

Discussion in 'Tele-Technical' started by GhostRider, Jan 5, 2009.

  1. GhostRider

    GhostRider Tele-Meister

    377
    Jun 7, 2007
    Ottawa, ON
    Hi there, I have an idea, and I am wondering if it would work.

    What I would like to do is have a typical "4 way" set up, but with an addition. I want one of the 5 positions to be the "cocked wah" option that is used on some Esquires.

    Is this possible? I've tried to figure it out looking at the diagrams, but I just don't know enough about wiring to figure it out.

    This would be how I would like it to be;
    1 - Neck
    2 - Neck/Bridge series
    3 - Neck/Bridge parallel
    4 - Bridge (Cocked Wah)
    5 - Bridge
     

  2. Rob DiStefano

    Rob DiStefano Poster Extraordinaire Vendor Member

    Age:
    71
    Mar 3, 2003
    NJ via TX
    I dunno if that switching arrangement can be made - probably so - maybe Deaf Eddie will post on it.

    After messing with too many wiring schemes I find the "cocked wah" to be more of a "crock" - that sound that has less use than the gut-bucket out-of-phase tone (which I find pretty useless). But then, that's just my tastes in tone.
     

  3. Stevil

    Stevil Tele-Meister

    120
    Sep 27, 2007
    Maine
    You'd be trying to switch pickup arrangements and caps in one throw. What you described you want would best be suited by a 4 way switch and the cap toggle handled with a push-pull pot.
     

  4. furrfurrfurr

    furrfurrfurr Friend of Leo's

    Aug 10, 2006
    South of Heaven
    what's a cocked wah?
     

  5. GhostRider

    GhostRider Tele-Meister

    377
    Jun 7, 2007
    Ottawa, ON
    EDIT: scroll down...
     
    Last edited: Jan 9, 2009

  6. GhostRider

    GhostRider Tele-Meister

    377
    Jun 7, 2007
    Ottawa, ON
    I was thinking about it and thought that this may be the case.

    Push-pull would be nice, I think the only ones I have are 500k though. I would think any kind of on-off switch would work.
     

  7. Wardpike

    Wardpike Friend of Leo's

    Age:
    52
    Feb 16, 2008
    St. John's, Newfoundland
    You need two things:
    1. 5 way Fender Super=strat switch
    2. Eldred Circuit as prescribed above,

    Best regards, I hope I've been helpful/
    Ward
     

  8. robt57

    robt57 Telefied Ad Free Member

    Feb 29, 2004
    Portland, OR

    Yea, without the super switch [4 pole] you will have the WAH cap on the bridge pup always .

    You could use a push/pull pot or a mini switch as well.
     
    Last edited: Jan 6, 2009

  9. Deaf Eddie

    Deaf Eddie Friend of Leo's Silver Supporter

    Mar 17, 2003
    Sunny San Diego, CA
    As indicated by previous posters, you could do it with a Superswitch, but NOT with a "regular" Strat 5-way. I can draw it up, if you get me the drawing for the "Eldred" mod.
     

  10. robt57

    robt57 Telefied Ad Free Member

    Feb 29, 2004
    Portland, OR

    Pretty sure this is it:

    [​IMG]
     

  11. Deaf Eddie

    Deaf Eddie Friend of Leo's Silver Supporter

    Mar 17, 2003
    Sunny San Diego, CA
    How odd. That drawing looks like it's just a .0047uF cap wired from hot to ground, which would just roll off some small amount of high end - rather like a tone pot rolled back to 8 or 9. And this sounds like a cocked wah? Interesting...

    To me, when you say "cocked wah" it brings to mind something funky and probably out-of-phase sounding - not what I would expect from this circuit.

    I rewired a friend's Country Gentleman a few years ago, because he wanted the values for the tone switch changed to something less muddy. I used that same value - .0047uF - to give him the "tone pot backed off a hair" sound he wanted for the "light" throw (we used an .022uF for the "heavy" throw). It just sounded like a tone pot, backed off a little. I have even advised Tele pickers who found their bridge pups too ice-picky to hard-wire that value cap, to tame the brights. I never thought it sounded like a wah pedal.

    That said, I should have a drawing for you shortly....
     

  12. Deaf Eddie

    Deaf Eddie Friend of Leo's Silver Supporter

    Mar 17, 2003
    Sunny San Diego, CA
    Here ya go...

    [​IMG]

    Note that as with the Fender 4-way (series) mod, your neck pup may have to be modified to disconnect the metal cover from the coil's ground lead, and a separate ground lead for the metal cover added (see unground/regrounding the metal cover).
     

  13. robt57

    robt57 Telefied Ad Free Member

    Feb 29, 2004
    Portland, OR
    Eddie, you never cease to amaze me. ;)

    FWIW: Neck and bridge Series on a Tele, one of my fav Mods, ;)
     

  14. Deaf Eddie

    Deaf Eddie Friend of Leo's Silver Supporter

    Mar 17, 2003
    Sunny San Diego, CA
    Well, it's not really that hard - I have a HUGE catalog (I keep copies of EVERYTHING) of drawings that I have created, and just do quick edits to the one that seems the closest to any "new" mod idea. It's, like, having a bunch of templates for the different switches, pups, and pickups - I just paste 'em in and draw the connections... What could be easier?

    For instance, in this case it was just a few edits to to my "Five Tone Tele" scheme/drawing that's been posted here for years.

    I use the simplest drawing program - MS Paint for Windows. I'm just comfortable with it. It ain't fancy - nor are my drawings! - but the idea is easily communicated (I hope!) using colors and familiar shapes. It seems to me it's a lot easier to read a drawing like this than some "official" schematic. It's just a drawing.

    It only gets hard when I attempt to predict what some unheard and untried (by me) mod will sound like, and then have to defend my opinion with no realtime experience!
     

  15. GhostRider

    GhostRider Tele-Meister

    377
    Jun 7, 2007
    Ottawa, ON
    Wow, thanks so much Deaf Eddie! That's really cool.

    I hate to impose, but would you be able to do one with the 4-way switch, but with a separate switch to engage the Eldred mod? The only reason I ask is that I already have a 4 way and another switch. No worries if you can't, I don't want you to think I don't appreciate you trying to help, because I do! A lot!
     

  16. Deaf Eddie

    Deaf Eddie Friend of Leo's Silver Supporter

    Mar 17, 2003
    Sunny San Diego, CA
    If what we're calling the "Eldred Mod" for this case is just the addition of a .0047uF cap to the bridge pickup, that's easy. Use ANY switch of your choice - p/p, mini-toggle on/on, whatever. One leg of the cap goes to ground, one leg of the cap goes to the common lug of the switch; one switchable lug of the switch is jumpered to the bridge pup's lug on the 4-way. That's it. It's going to have SOME effect on ANY throw that has the bridge pup, though - that's three of your four throws.

    [​IMG]

    The deal is, using a 4-way and an additional switch, why not just have the cap available to ALL the throws, rather than just three with the bridge pup?

    So, just move the jumper from the switch over one lug on the 4-way (in the drawing) to the jumper that connects the neck pup and 4-way to the volume pot. OR, if you use a p/p under the volume or tone, go right to "in" lug on the volume pot (the pot's lower lug in THIS drawing).

    I think what we need to keep in mind here is that the Eldred mod has THREE tones - the bridge pup with NO tone control, the bridge pup WITH a tone control, and the bridge pup with the cap and NO tone control, with that one being called the "cocked wah" tone. I still don't get it... But, whatever.

    Hey, maybe I can use the other side of the p/p or mini-toggle to take the tone control OUT of the circuit when the little cap is IN the circuit...? It could be done with the Superswitch, too, now that I think of it. Don't know how much difference that would make - other than none at all, if you have a no-load tone pot. The Gretsch had no tone pot involved, and it didn't sound like a wah to me... Of course, I may just be spoiled by the fact that almost all of my guitars HAVE a series/out of phase option/mod - now THAT'S what I'd call a cocked wah tone!
     

  17. GhostRider

    GhostRider Tele-Meister

    377
    Jun 7, 2007
    Ottawa, ON
    [​IMG]

    Ah I see what you did there!
    OK Sounds easy enough, I guess that would make 8 different tones instead of whats there now, always good to have more options!

    In the Video (i don't know if you watched it or not) you can hear it around 5:50. To me it sounds distinct, as he says it's kind of an "ah ah" type sound coming out of it. To me it is a different kind of sound than the "out of phase" that I am used to - I have a Strat that has each pup on a 3 way, so that you can have any pup on, off, or out of phase, and it doesn't sound (to me anyway) like what he's doing in that video. Also, don't you need to have 2 pickups active to have something out of phase? I think I am confusing myself here... lol

    Either way, I think that the way you diagrammed it with the 4-way and the other switch is what I will end up doing. As I said I've already got the equipment, just a matter of doing it.

    Can't tell you how much I appreciate you taking the time to look at this for me. I love the idea of having a lot of different sounds available at the flick of a switch, but just have no idea how to implement it sometimes.

    That would be a neat option as well. Would that also give it a tad more output as well, just like in the Esquire he has in the Vid?

    On my Strats I almost never use the tone pots, however I've found my self using more on the Tele.
     

  18. Del Pickup

    Del Pickup Poster Extraordinaire

    Mar 24, 2008
    New Zealand
    I had a listen to the video of the CS Esquire and I love the 'cocked wah' tone in that front position. It's almost like a boxy semi-hollow body tone which you hear on many of the old blues records.

    Would it be possible to achieve that tone with a SD Broadcaster bridge pup and Seth Lover in the neck and using one of these diagrams above? Mike Eldred seems to put a lot of emphasis for the tone of the guitar in the vid down to the very hot bridge pup which is probably wound twice as hot as a more vintage style pickup like the Broadcaster.

    My existing 3 way switch is a bit scratchy now so it's probably about time to swap it for a new one anyway so maybe I could get a 4 or 5 way switch and try some of these set ups.
     

  19. robt57

    robt57 Telefied Ad Free Member

    Feb 29, 2004
    Portland, OR
    I am partial to Arlo's Cocked WAH in the Faded red Taipan Tone beasty @ 2:50 to 4:00 and 7:20 clean. I put that cap in one Tele so far and will do it in a few more with a push pull for soloing. It sounds so good hot to me. I agree clean, not so much...


     

  20. Deaf Eddie

    Deaf Eddie Friend of Leo's Silver Supporter

    Mar 17, 2003
    Sunny San Diego, CA
    YouTube is blocked at work for me, so I can't hear/see what you are talking about. Like FZ sez, talking about music (tone) can be relatively futile. The out of phase tones you get out of your Strat are what I would describe as "cocked wah" sounding TO ME. The tone created by this mod would have practically nothing in common with those tones - that's why I shall call it the Eldred mod, rather than "cocked wah." I wish I COULD hear it, because this seems to be much ado about nothing - or at least, very little - to me. I participate only to assit you in achieving the WIRING SCHEME you request - no guaranties on the tone you'll be getting.

    Again, it's absolutely possible to WIRE any pickups in this fashion, but I cannot guaranty that you will get a TONE similar to whatever you are listening to. Tone is a function of the pickups and amp, the player, etc... But you can sure give the wiring scheme a try.

    ANYWAY....

    OK, here's a drawing for option #2, 4-way and an extra switch. If you use a simple on/on toggle or p/p, one throw is the regular tone pot, one throw is the .0047uF high-end roll-off only. If you use a p/p pot, the "top" of the switch as drawn would be where the pot is. This would give you regular tone pot when normal, .0047uF-cap-only when pulled.

    BUT! If you use an on/ON/on toggle (stewmac part #1223 or #1224)(edit: that IS a 3-way mini-toggle) , you will get all three Eldred mod tones: regular tone pot, NO tone pot, and .0047uf cap roll-off-only.

    [​IMG]
     
    Last edited: Jan 8, 2009

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