Asher Guitars WD Music Products Amplified Parts Mod Kits DIY Nordstarnd Pickups darrenriley.com
Asher Guitars WD Music Products Amplified Parts Mod Kits DIY Nordstarnd Pickups Warmoth.com
Asher Guitars WD Music Products Amplified Parts Mod Kits DIY Nordstarnd Pickups Warmoth.com

4 Way switch problem with aftermarket pickups

Discussion in 'Tele-Technical' started by Chango Frett, Sep 9, 2018.

  1. Chango Frett

    Chango Frett TDPRI Member

    Age:
    32
    20
    Sep 9, 2018
    United States of America
    Ok... question time!

    I just wired up a Telecaster with an Area 58 in neck (no cover, routed the pickguard to fit) and a SD JB Jr (made a custom mount for it) to a 4 way selector (for series at position 4) and a Bourns Dual pot DPDT (yup, two actual separate pots in one and not a blend) for coil splitting both pickups with the split position and HB position each having their own cap value.

    Problem is... without a coil split the selector isn't working correctly. Position 4 is Neck only (should be series), Position 3 is Neck (which is correct), Position 2 is Neck and Bridge (which is correct), and Position 1 is still Neck and Bridge (should be bridge alone)

    The weird thing is when I pull the switch to split coils, the selector is perfect so my solders should all be absolutely fine there.

    Anyone have any ideas?

    It's a conundrum.

    I followed Fender's diagram for the 4 way selector. Don't pay attention to that loose black wire, it'll be removed shortly. The white wire leading to the DPDT is the Black and White leads from the DiMarzio Area 58.

    Please, don't give me crap about my wiring unless it'll actually help the situation. The thing is buzzless when plugged in and sounds delicious.[​IMG] [​IMG] [​IMG] [​IMG] [​IMG]

    This is the switch wiring diagram I used.

    Addendum: It seems that when the humbuckers are enabled, Position 4 (supposedly for series) is actually splitting out the bridge north coil in favor of the south coil.
     

    Attached Files:

    Last edited: Sep 10, 2018

  2. Chango Frett

    Chango Frett TDPRI Member

    Age:
    32
    20
    Sep 9, 2018
    United States of America
    At the very least I'd like to be able to use the bridge HB by itself.
     

  3. TRexF16

    TRexF16 Friend of Leo's

    Apr 4, 2011
    Tucson
    No images are showing up. Try the "Upload a File" tab under the reply window.
    Rex
     

  4. Deaf Eddie

    Deaf Eddie Friend of Leo's Silver Supporter

    Your neck pickup has an unwanted continuity with the guitar's ground. That's why it plays in all throws and the bridge pup doesn't show up in the series throw.

    Another clue is that you get what you expect with the coil-shunt option engaged. You are bypassing the neck pup's coil with the errant ground connection.

    Look VERY CAREFULLY at the neck pickup's wiring.
     

  5. Chango Frett

    Chango Frett TDPRI Member

    Age:
    32
    20
    Sep 9, 2018
    United States of America
    I just pulled everything apart and none of my wires or contact points are touching a ground anywhere. Is there something in the schematic (add a DPDT with both pickups connected in standard coil split for humbucker wiring with bridged ground posts at the bottom) that could cause that?
     

  6. TRexF16

    TRexF16 Friend of Leo's

    Apr 4, 2011
    Tucson
    Hey Chango,
    Glad to have you with us here on the THD. Just in case you didn't know how lucky you are to have had a real world class icon, Deaf Eddie, chime in to help you out as your first respondent, the answer is "real lucky!" Google the guy if you like. This is a great place and I am sure you guys are going to be able to figure this out. I'm looking forward to the solution you find after collaborating with one of the real sages.
    When you get the final solution, as I am sure you eventually will, please post a detailed wiring diagram for those who may want to do the same.

    Cheers,
    Rex
     
    Chango Frett likes this.

  7. Deaf Eddie

    Deaf Eddie Friend of Leo's Silver Supporter

    This will be like dancing about architecture...

    I can't really see what going on with your pics, so I'll try it this way:

    Take it ONE STEP at a time.

    IF I were to wire that scheme, the Area 58 would be wired like this: GREEN wire to the common lug on the 4-way, RED wire through the two lugs on the 4-way, and on to the input lug of the volume pot. The bare wire in the bundle (the "fifth conductor") goes to GROUND, and is not with the green lead. Be sure they are separated, and perhaps insulated to insure that it does not contact any of the lugs on the 4-way..

    The JB Jr (edited to correct pickup model) : BLACK lead to the other common lug on the 4-way, GREEN lead AND bare wire together to ground.

    The jumpers on the 4-way are the same as in the drawing from Fender.

    4-way help.jpg

    The Area 58 black and white leads (series pair) are soldered to one of the common (center) lugs on the p/p.

    The JB Jr red and white leads (series pair) are soldered to the other common lug on the p/p.
    The shunt jumper (connected to the lug closest to the pot) from the Area 58 series pair would be connected EITHER to the volume pot input with its red lead or the 4-way its green lead - NOT to ground. The difference between those two possible connections will determine which coil plays and which is shunted. You can use this option to select the coil that makes a "noise cancelling" pair with the coil you select from the bridge pup.

    The shunt jumper (connected to the other lug closest to the pot) from the JB Jr series pair would be connected EITHER to the 4-way with its BLACK lead or to ground. Again, the difference between the two choices will determine which coils still plays and which is shunted.

    I'm not saying that isn't what you have done, I'm just saying, I hope this helps...
     
    Last edited: Sep 11, 2018

  8. TRexF16

    TRexF16 Friend of Leo's

    Apr 4, 2011
    Tucson
    Like I said, what a great place this is. There's a couple hundred bucks worth of world class guitar tech consultation given for free. I hope it works out for you.
     

  9. Chango Frett

    Chango Frett TDPRI Member

    Age:
    32
    20
    Sep 9, 2018
    United States of America
    Thank you very much for the information. I'll digest it and attempt a rewire tomorrow.

    However... the Area 58 is a 4 lead. There is no bare lead from it. Don't know how much of a difference it makes.

    By the by, I made a custom mount for a JB Jr instead of buying a Lil 59er for the bridge. Wanted to be different.
     

  10. Chango Frett

    Chango Frett TDPRI Member

    Age:
    32
    20
    Sep 9, 2018
    United States of America
    Definite thanks, Mr. Eddie. I've seen your information around the forums. I only JUST registered yesterday but I've definitely gained some insight from your posts prior to this so I am honored that you decided to jump in and help me out. As I said, I'll try to get a rewire in tomorrow or the next day and I'll let you both know how it goes.
     

  11. Chango Frett

    Chango Frett TDPRI Member

    Age:
    32
    20
    Sep 9, 2018
    United States of America
    I'm new to understanding this wiring thing. If I had a diagram that laid out how switches are designed and operate and how signal flow in a guitar works I could figure it all out, I'm sure. I'm not going to ask that of you, of course, but if you know of a repository of information that has all that spelled out I'd definitely be reading it. (I just found your page, by the way. Been browsing all the pictures you have set up)

    So... on the Area 58 the end of the Top Coil is the Red lead. The end of the Bottom Coil is the Green lead. If I were to connect the shunt jumper back to the volume pot lug, would that shunt the bottom coil out and allow the top coil to continue playing when the switch is pulled?

    ...or am I way off base?

    The mechanics of assembling a guitar and modifying the hardware and make-up are understood by me. Electricity mazes aren't.

    I'm doing my best, though. It's a journey!
     

  12. Wally

    Wally Telefied Ad Free Member

    Mar 17, 2003
    Lubbock, TX
    Chango, the wiring color codes for DiMarzio and SeyMour Duncan pickups is different. In order to have thatswitch work correctly...or as expected....one will have to know what color applies to what end of what coil so that the phase relationship can be correctly established. This has noth8ng to do with your current problems bit is relevant to putting two pickups from different manufacturers together.
    As for you wiring, we can’t see the push/pull switch connections. Also, I have never used that concentric pot/switch. What is you purpose there?
     

  13. Deaf Eddie

    Deaf Eddie Friend of Leo's Silver Supporter

    I've edited my previous post with a correction on the JB Jr...

    "So... on the Area 58 the end of the Top Coil is the Red lead. The end of the Bottom Coil is the Green lead. If I were to connect the shunt jumper back to the volume pot lug, would that shunt the bottom coil out and allow the top coil to continue playing when the switch is pulled?"


    You're close, but exactly opposite. Connecting the series pair to the input lug of the volume pot (with the red lead) would shunt (bypass) the red coil, and only the green coil would play.

    To play the "red" coil, you will want the shunt jumper connected to the 4-way on the same lug as the GREEN lead. This gives the series pair a connection that shorts out (shunts) the green coil.

    The reason you don't just connect it to ground (on the pot) is because that would simply allow the red coil to play, regardless of where the 4-way is. This is because with the Fender 4-way scheme, the neck pickup is controlled by where the 4-way connects its negative (aka ground) lead - its hot lead is always connected, and is NOT controlled by the 4-way switch.

    NEXT: I haven't attempted to address your dual-ganged pot. How do you determine which pot the signal goes to, when you pull the p/p (I assume) to coil-shunt the pickups?? That might be some or all of your issue...

    LAST: "However... the Area 58 is a 4 lead. There is no bare lead from it. Don't know how much of a difference it makes."

    AFAIK, the Area 58 SHOULD have a ground/shield drain wire in the lead bundle. It could just be a tiny lead that runs along a foil shield that's around the four colored/jacketed leads. You might try CAREFULLY pealing back the jacket a bit and see if there's a foil shield, and find a "drain" wire - BUT, it may or may not have anything to do with your issue. While it's "proper" to make sure that its ground/shield is grounded (if you find it), if it's too scary to try, leave it alone - in other words, if it ain't broke, don't fix it...
     
    Last edited: Sep 11, 2018

  14. Chango Frett

    Chango Frett TDPRI Member

    Age:
    32
    20
    Sep 9, 2018
    United States of America

    If I understand correctly... I want to connect the opposing coil to its corresponding insertion into signal flow in order to stop it from playing?

    The dual ganged pot DPDT was an accidental order that I felt I would make use of. As far as I can tell, the Pull position of the switch is splitting coils and definitely has the sound of the larger capacitor value I placed on it to help tame the highs.

    I think a lot of my problem is that I have the bottom lugs of the switch connected via jumper to the bottom of the volume pot as a ground. I did it because I saw it in a diagram not knowing the purpose. Anyway, let me see if I can draw up a crude diagram of my DPDT wiring.

    (edit: the correct colors are white and red for the JB in the diagram)
     

    Attached Files:

    Last edited: Sep 11, 2018

  15. Chango Frett

    Chango Frett TDPRI Member

    Age:
    32
    20
    Sep 9, 2018
    United States of America

    I have the phase switched accordingly.

    The pot is a dual pot, not a concentric or a blend. As you pull the DPDT up, it switches to another pot. I have 2 different capacitors going. One for the HBs to keep them a bit brighter and one for the shunts/splits to keep them a bit duller so when I pull the switch it all evens out pretty well as long as the tone knob isn't wide open. A bit more sophisticated, to me, than a treble bleed and doesn't negatively impact the HB side of things.
     

  16. Chango Frett

    Chango Frett TDPRI Member

    Age:
    32
    20
    Sep 9, 2018
    United States of America
    Work kept me long today so I didn't have a chance to work on it. Ran out of daylight.

    Every extra bit of understanding goes a long way, though, so thank you all for this.
     

  17. Deaf Eddie

    Deaf Eddie Friend of Leo's Silver Supporter

    "If I understand correctly... I want to connect the opposing coil to its corresponding insertion into signal flow in order to stop it from playing?"

    Uhhh… that sounds right. Which ever coil you wish to SHUNT out of the circuit, connect the series pair to its lead, wherever it hits the circuit. To SHUNT (bypass) the green coil, connect the series pair jumper to the green lead on the 4-way. Vice-verse to shunt the red coil: the shunt jumper goes to the red lead (volume pot input).

    The reason your drawing doesn't work as expected is because by running the Area 58 series pair straight to ground (instead of to the 4-way), the red coil is always on (as explained previously).
    It's OK on the JB Jr side.

    The stacked p/p sounds interesting - never seen or heard of one like that. So, you just tied the two input and the two output lugs together? Inputs from the 4-way, outputs to the jack? What keeps the two caps from both affecting the output? Effectively, it seems to me that with the pots wired that way, the caps are parallel in the circuit - IF my understanding of how the pot(s) work is correct (and it very well may not be). Clip one cap out, and see how that affects the sound and function of the tone pot (I'm just curious).

    It also APPEARS from your pics that you haven't grounded the third lug on the volume pots...
     
    Chango Frett likes this.

  18. Chango Frett

    Chango Frett TDPRI Member

    Age:
    32
    20
    Sep 9, 2018
    United States of America
    It was a success! I'm using the south coil on the JB instead of North but it's all working! I had to lift the ground from the bottom lugs on both sides of the dpdt, however. It was causing the South coil only to play in both push and pull. I only noticed it by accident when I had the switch set dead center between push and pull in a spot where it wasn't supposed to be. As I would pull the switch out I would hear the full pickup come on and then go back to a single coil.

    Thanks so much for the knowledge!


    Now... is a small amount of bleed from the other pickup normal in some selections?

    It seems a TINY amount of sound comes from the north coil of the JB even with the shunt and I also get some bleed from the 58 in certain positions.
     
    Last edited: Sep 12, 2018

  19. Chango Frett

    Chango Frett TDPRI Member

    Age:
    32
    20
    Sep 9, 2018
    United States of America
    I did snip the capacitor from one of the two pots. On the "pull" of the dpdt it acted as if the tone knob wasn't even in the circuit anymore.
     

  20. Deaf Eddie

    Deaf Eddie Friend of Leo's Silver Supporter

    You'll have to show me how that dual pot is wired, I'm intrigued.
    Can you point me to where you purchased it?

    IF you want to play the other coil ion the JB Jr , instead of shunting it to ground as you did in your drawing, run the shunt lead to its hot on the 4-way.
     

IMPORTANT: Treat everyone here with respect, no matter how difficult!
No sex, drug, political, religion or hate discussion permitted here.