2017 New road bicycle thread...

Discussion in 'Bad Dog Cafe' started by robt57, May 24, 2017.

  1. robt57

    robt57 Telefied Ad Free Member

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    Wasn't sure I was going to like all the black bits modern build aspects with the more retro chrome stays/fork/frameset... But I do, 'And I do, hey, hey, hey, and I do'... :D:D:D
     
  2. bender66

    bender66 Poster Extraordinaire Silver Supporter

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    I went up to the Bay Area this past weekend & the subject of my first road bike in the 90's came up. A steel Specialized Allez. A more knowledgeable road friend grabbed it for me to cross train for my off roading. I sold that bike off long ago to a friend who kept in intact (60cm & a 130 Salsa quill stem?) who, in turn, sold it to another. I've was amazed how well that fit me when sizing bikes in the future. I should have used that as a base for all my fits but I was at the mercy of others telling me what I need & what I could ride.

    Down tube shifters, Scott Drop Ins, initially it had 53/42 Campy cranks & I couldn't figure out why I went backwards in the hills. It still has the FEAR headtube sticker on it.

    That think looks pimp robt.
     
  3. robt57

    robt57 Telefied Ad Free Member

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    :cool:
     
  4. robt57

    robt57 Telefied Ad Free Member

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    You should google for the exact geometry of that steel Allez, tear size etc. And use it when you get something else. Hell, get another one and have it powder coated your fav Fender color and retro fit modern running gear like I did to the Molteni.

    I stopped believing advice on fit @ about 15k in, mostly. ;)

    I did raise the bar slowly every other season over 10 years. But @ 60 I started buying into my fit/age and getting even more into a much taller bar height with shorter reach fit. After 2 seasons of being miserable fishing for the old guy position. I am back to where I was prior, maybe 2.75-3" bar drop instead of the 4-1/2 inches when I was 40-45.

    Not until I had a Custom frame built in 2000 by Carl Strong where he used every measurement of the length of each limb section as well as inseam and inseam to sternum/notch did I get fit like the proverbial glove.

    Carl Strong caught that my femurs and arms are proportionately long by a good amount. Been using Carl's 2000 geom permanently memorized in my brain to this day. One exception is the low low stack [headtube length]. He musta thought I was faster and lower than I am.. was... ;) Or would become.
     
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  5. bender66

    bender66 Poster Extraordinaire Silver Supporter

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    That was 15-20 yrs ago. Eventually I'd find my way but injuries took their toll too.

    When I hung up the race bike for good I slowly realized how bad those positions are for retirement. Just dropped off a new carbon fork with a 300mm steer at my carbon guy to look over for my Supersix. The stock one was cut down with the stem slammed. I don't know how I ever climbed so well on that bike.

    I will look up that geometry. I bet it's slightly slack compare to today's but not much evolving in race geometry over the years. It's only in those "comfort" frames that manufacturers are forcing upon us where you see the change. Those bikes ride like pigs.
     
  6. robt57

    robt57 Telefied Ad Free Member

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    Super Six are well liked around here. I had a Six13 for a while a few years back.

    My 10 mile shake out on the Corsa showed me a machine with a stout Bottom end [and I am near 100 kilos] a turning stability at speed I'd not be afraid to dive an inside line to pass someone at speed in a turn. I am glad it fits a 28 tire, it is pretty stiff with 28mm high chain stays. 32.8mm down tube and 32mm top tube. Steel fork as well. Tomorrows longer ride I will be running less PSI in the tires.

    I have been riding more lax front ends for last few weeks, so this felt hyper. But I bet after a few days it will normalize the feeling I noticed today. I have other go fast bikez and steep front ends. Just have been riding that Conquest a lot since I built it, and the green 'Gravel' machine both with 42mm tires [actual 38-39mm wide ] for comparative purposes to each other. Yada
     
  7. imwjl

    imwjl Poster Extraordinaire

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    You can get anything you want these days and "ride like pigs" is relative or not understood by me. The more slack and more upright bikes accommodate more conditions and far more people. Some people might want to be a Lance-a-like but walking into a retailer wanting a bike and clothing doesn't force it on you.

    You can also update old frames if you don't like what's current.
     
  8. chris m.

    chris m. Poster Extraordinaire

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    Having a bike with a large amount of drop between the seat and the handlebar tops may look pro, but usually isn't necessary. Raising the drop just 1-2 cm can make a huge
    positive difference in every aspect-- handling, power delivery, comfort-- with little to no sacrifice in efficiency or aerodynamics. If you look closely at bikes in the TdF many
    guys are opting for slightly more relaxed positions....especially since the vast majority of the time they are cheating the wind, anyway, by riding in the peloton.

    When I see guys with slammed handlebars, guess what-- I almost never see them riding in the drops. But I remember riding criteriums where I would never leave the
    drops. So I believe a bike should be set up for optimum power and acceleration with a nice, flat, aero back, while in the drops. This means that when you're cruising on
    the hoods or on the tops you're going to be in a much more relaxed position. One you can ride in for hours while chatting with your mates in the pack, snacking, and enjoying
    the scenery.

    If you've ever done CX racing, this is also a situation where you're almost always in the drops. You get better control and braking power from the drops. On some steeper
    descents you might ride the hoods, and you would typically climb fromt the hoods or tops. So it turns out that you need to be in the drops a lot on a CX or "gravel" bike...
    which argues for setting up the bike for effective positioning while in the drops. Going with shallower drop bars also makes sense for these bikes.
    A flare-out also can increase steering leverage.

    A more relaxed seat tube angle also works well for guys with longer femurs, and generally improves overall endurance riding. But we are typically talking a difference of
    1 or two degrees here, which can easily be offset by adjusting the saddle position in the seatpost.

    Just like for the guitar market, it's a wonderful time to be a consumer of cycling gear. The quality in terms of both design and construction of bicycles today at any given
    price point is just phenomenal. The 105 groupo of today is easily as good as the Dura Ace groupo of 5 or 6 years ago.

    Classic bikes of the 70s had pretty slack angles,
    which got steeper in subsequent years. But all along there were strong proponents of slacker angles. The fact that bikes are now being built again with slacker angles
    is just recognizing the inherent advantages for most applications, for most people. YMMV, and a lot of it depends on individual body geometry.
    I have a relatively long upper body and long femurs, so classic LeMond or Merckx geometry tends to suit me.
    Italian frames have always tended to have slightly steeper angles and shorter top tubes, catering more to the
    typical body geometry of an Italian racer.

    The other thing to remember is that people are running much bigger tires these days. The frame geometry needs to accommodate these bigger tires-- to clear
    the down tube and to avoid toe overlap, for example. The actual net overall geometry-- how the bike handles on the road-- ends up being affected by the
    higher profile of the tires, so that has to be taken into account. Chainstay length and overall wheelbase are also big factors in how a bike handles and feels.
    My view is that the industry is doing a pretty darn good job these days of optimizing frame designs for the intended application. As long as you buy a bike
    designed for what you are going to use it for, chances are the geometry has been pretty well thought out. So if you buy the right frame size, unless you have
    a body geometry that is very unusual, you should be able
    to get a great setup with adjusting the saddle, the seat height, and cockpit adjustments including handlebar height and reach (replacing stem if needed).
     
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  9. robt57

    robt57 Telefied Ad Free Member

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    I only rode like a piglette @ 5-8k a season, not counting winter Computer based indoor trainers, but that was only like 300 mile worth per month in the winter months due to being a volunteer at area ski area, else it have been more.

    I had two friends that always popped 10k every year.
     
  10. robt57

    robt57 Telefied Ad Free Member

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    Performs as 'well'? perhaps sorta. But add a decade [15-16 yrs], and the current 105 will last maybe a decade less as well IMO. 5-6 old Dura Ace hands down is easily better than 5800 by bounds, and more bounds in weight should one be willing to spend a ton of money to save 1-1/2 lbs. :cool:

    I have mint 10 speed 7800 Dura Ace [2003] still on a bike, and a 5800 11 speed 105 group in a box pulled off another. IMO like comparing a Mercedes to a Chevy, yes some Chevys are fast and handle fantastic. ;)
    I am not driving the Chevy when I got a Merc in the garage.

    But what you say is true, very true in many respects. For someone who may ride 1500 mile a year even, lasting 10 more years is moot. 105/5800 is great inexpensive gear with little performance short comings if any. Not to mention if you fall replacing bits you might damage or can't stand to look at mashed up won't break the bank either.
     
  11. robt57

    robt57 Telefied Ad Free Member

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    I guess it depend on your technique on the bike. I am on the tops in by the stem almost exclusively, keeping my arms in.

    Drops in pace lines [hands on brakes, tops when pulling on the front] and what little sprints I do anymore. Or even a mild sprint just for a hard acceleration, just because I need the leverage of my levers[limbs] as such when putting that power down, such as it is anymore. Hands on the hoods for me is climbing and braking mostly. Or JRA with casual riding partners I don't necessarily trust skills being near.

    But I have long femurs, and can bang my knees sprinting if I don't use longs stems with short reach bars, lower saddle to bar drop. I always see the front axle behind my bars while seated. Something fitting folk balk at.

    So it really depends on the pilot I guess I am saying...
     
  12. chris m.

    chris m. Poster Extraordinaire

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    I still run 9 sp DuraAce STI on my road bike, so I can attest to its amazing durability. On the other hand, I'm thinking of buying 105 for my next off-road gravel/CX road bike because it's way cheaper and
    will be heavily abused. I figure why not replace the derailleurs regularly, at lower cost. I might go Ultegra though-- in the past Ultegra has been just as durable and almost as light as DA, at least
    in my experience, just not quite as pretty and significantly cheaper. SRAM is also an option-- I have SRAM Eagle stuff on my mtb and it works well, though I can't attest to its long-term durability (yet).

    105 is definitely a noticeable step down....but not a big step, especially compared to the much cheaper stuff. But I would still say
    that groups as lowly as Tiagra offer great functionality compared to stuff like Suntour back in the late 80s....but some of that SunTour stuff was definitely a lot more shiny, I'll give it that.

    I've gotten lazy and
    admit that switching out cartridges in hubs and BBs is easier than regularly lubing and adjusting loose ball bearings like back in the day....that said, there's nothing quite as beautiful as a classic Campy headset
    or BB or hub with incredibly shiny ball bearings running as smooth as silk.

    While DA does last longer, I doubt most purchasers actually keep it that long and therefore don't actually accrue the benefit that
    they paid dearly for. For example, how many guys are like me and still running 9 sp DA? Not too many, I bet. When guys get bicycle GAS and buy a complete bike every three years or so
    it's kind of ridiculous to pay for groupos that are designed to last 20 years. In my case I'm still running my Time racing bike purchased in about '03 or '04, and the 9 sp DA I put on it had been mounted on
    at least 3 other racing frames prior to getting the Time frameset. I'm sure I've had it over 20 years- it came out in '96 and I bought it right around then.
     
  13. chris m.

    chris m. Poster Extraordinaire

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    9 speed is also inherently more durable than 10 or 11 to some extent just because the individual cassette sprockets have more meat on them....

    I also don't think the Mercedes/Chevy analogy is a good one. A better analogy, IMO, is Lexus (DA) vs. Toyota Camry (Ultegra), vs. Toyota Yaris (105)....in the first two the differences are almost entirely cosmetic, while in the third there is a noticeable quality cut in order to hit a much lower price point.
     
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  14. robt57

    robt57 Telefied Ad Free Member

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    Chris, you may find this amusing. I ran 7700 for 12 years, and upgraded enough bit to 7800 to get 10 speed at a point.

    I only then realized that 7700 STI are tiny, 7800 fit my big paws MUCH BETTER. I think it is possible the no so ergo small 7700 STI for my huge mitts may well have started my bar/hand use as I laid out above. I also needed to shorten my stem length 1CM when I went to 7800 STI, they are that much bigger.

    As to 5800 VS your 7700, mainly the buttery cable pull effort the 5800 lacks may offend you. Hell, I don't even like swinging the lever to shift but tolerate it on 7800 due to such minimal buttery effort involved. 7800 more buttery than 7700.

    I think I wore my Cubital Tunnel shifting STI over the years maybe. Thought about having the surgery to release it. And it is worse on my right where I have been shifting 10x more than my left for 20 years.

    I have moved to ERGO and Di2 instead of having the surgery. I also have a MicroShift STI set on a rain bike. These do not aggravate the Cubital Tunnel discomfort. Sux getting old...
     
    Last edited: Oct 12, 2018
  15. robt57

    robt57 Telefied Ad Free Member

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    Especially with the ti cogs on the Dura cassettes. But I run Ultegra cassettes. I ride so many different wheels/cassette and bikes I may not appreciate wear like a normal one bike owning sane person.

    OK, But, to me plastic 5800 STI levers is a cut I notice in feel and do not like. Not to mention the front DR in the 5800/6800 groups suuked IMO.

    But they fixed this with upgraded [needed IMO] FDs and the R8000 FD with a much better design.

    BTW, what do you think of the road line using the Shadow tech on the rear DRs now? I even put a 8000 series Shadow rear DR on my Di2 6800 series for the two extra teeth capacity. ;)
     
    Last edited: Oct 12, 2018
  16. robt57

    robt57 Telefied Ad Free Member

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    Heretic. :cool:

    Headsets & BBs yes. But I have still have a few 7700/hub wheelsets that may just last forever. One set on the 3rd set of R&R rims. And I used 9 speed XTR hubs for my All Road/Gravel wheels, the last of the bigger diameter balls, so to speak. ;)
     
  17. chris m.

    chris m. Poster Extraordinaire

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    I just read an interesting article comparing modern Ultegra vs. 105 and it appears that they are very, very close, so what you are mainly buying is about 5 oz
    of lighter weight, if we are talking mechanical groupos. Ultegra does have a nice 46/36 chainring set, which is not available in 105, but I think I could live with
    50/34 and I could always upgrade the chainring set to Ultegra 46/36 if I really wanted to for relatively low cost, using the same BB. So my analogy is probably
    not valid. More like Toyota Camry with cloth seats and plastic dashboard vs. Toyota Camry with leather seats and nice dashboard accents. Just as the leather
    seat feels better on the back and tushy, the upgraded materials in the Ultegra levers probably feels a little nicer in the hand.

    https://road.cc/content/buyers-guide/201326-head-head-shimano-105-v-shimano-ultegra

    The electronic shifting is intriguing and I may go for it one day. Although I recently watched the movie "Icarus" and one thing that happens early on is the
    guy is doing a big amateur race in France and has a terrible stage because his Di2 battery dies unexpectedly and he's stuck in one gear for the rest of his
    ride. That would suck. In your case it sounds absolutely necessary.
     
  18. robt57

    robt57 Telefied Ad Free Member

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    Di2:

    I added a climber switch and accidentally taped the loop for the main wire going into the shifter. The loop in the Di2 wire is there exaclty for the reason of what I caused. Should worn my reading glasses..

    I bunny hopped a huge speed bump and the shifter slid down upon my landing. The tape held the wire and it popped out of the shifter. I did a lot of standing for the rest of that ride. Even after trying to use a stick to pop it back in on the side of the road. [no reading glasses]

    Before the battery runs down, you loose front auto trimming, then shifting. The rear still works for a good while if you shift sparsely. So if you pay attention to the lack of auto trimming on the FD or can't shift the front at all you won't have as bad a time as I did when I was afraid to crank the STi onto the carbon handlebar sufficiently.

    In my defense, the reviews on that particular handlebar critiqued the bend and limited solid mounting if you like more than one rotation position on the bend/upper hook. Oh well, I put Kapton tape on the radius next time I re-taped to remedy. Been solid since, and I got the misplaced wire holding tape out of the equation. User error...

    They mention the Wallmart feel of the 105 plastic lever VS the carbonized plastic lever on the Ultegra? Little bits of fiber aggregate stiffen them up a bit. ;)

    My Campy Chorus and Record Shifters have pretty carbon lever/bats. I am scared shipless of scratching them or grinding some off. ;) Actually, Shifters are not the pricier parts of Campy groups anymore...
     
  19. chris m.

    chris m. Poster Extraordinaire

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    Yeah, if I were still racing crits no way I would have carbon levers or derailleurs like the high zoot Campy stuff. Some guys with lots of coin just go for it, but
    I'll be retiring in about seven years and I realize how every dollar I save while I'm working can really impact my quality of life when I stop. So my cheap streak
    is getting even more pronounced.
     
  20. imwjl

    imwjl Poster Extraordinaire

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    My association with bike industry people proves my thoughts about the diminishing returns as you spend if not my personal experience.

    One of our trail stewards works for the Asian company that is contracted to make name brand stuff we see in stores. Another was the bike makers’ technical liaison for a well known suspension parks maker until quite recently. They’ve pointed out how a lot of the higher cost reflects lower sales volume, cosmetics, and an opportunity for higher margins in addition to actual manufacturing costs.

    Another insight on fancy vs basic parts is my friend who’s worked in the race shop in peak season. That associate said they go through an incredible volume of more basic parts. Race day and stuff used for marketing is set up fancy. It’s not much different than a well made guitar with correct dimensions and good setup is more important than how fancy it is.

    A SRAM employee gifted me top model drivetrain as a combo thanks for my volunteer work and saving his day in a race. With that and mid level on our bikes I can say it was pretty, the shifters had nicer click, and a crash broke the same part lower models have.

    If I was still a no kids few months a year adventure person I’d probably buy more fancy bits. At this point in life I feel I was pretty stupid for some of the bike and even worse, car purchases I’ve made.

    :)
     
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