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1956 Fender Champ 5f1 - What 6" Speaker?

Discussion in 'Amp Tech Center' started by JesseS, Jun 12, 2018.

  1. JesseS

    JesseS TDPRI Member

    Age:
    39
    9
    Mar 10, 2016
    AZ
    Hi folks! I just inherited a 1956 Fender Champ 5f1, untouched, original, with the 6" speaker. I had a tech go through for safety - had to change a few bad caps and added a grounded cord. The amp is amazing!!!! However, the speaker has some intermittent sizzle / static and either needs to be redone or replaced. I was hoping to put it aside safely and swap-in a new 6" speaker. I ordered a Jensen C6V, which looks lovely. Imagine my frustration though - the mounting posts on the baffle do not match the holes on the Jensen basket. (Maybe this is why the Weber site says their 6" speakers will not fit?) From what I can tell buy searching online, there is no new 6" speaker with wider mounting holes, similar to the old alnico that came in the amp. I think I could use a dremmel to adapt the Jensen to fit, but I still don't know if it would even clear the transformer once mounted. So I'm a bit trapped - can't return the Jensen if I modify it, can't tell if it will work unless I modify it, can't find any other option. (The alnico version of the Jensen, model P6V looks to have the same mounting holes.) Any ideas? Thanks!
     
    Mat likes this.

  2. robrob

    robrob Poster Extraordinaire Ad Free Member

    Dec 29, 2012
    United States
    If you must stick with a 6" speaker then I recommend the hemp coned Eminence 620H. It's by far my favorite 6" speaker.

    [​IMG]
     

  3. Stefanovich

    Stefanovich Tele-Holic

    667
    Jan 27, 2010
    Kingston, Ontario
    Can you drill mounting holes in the speaker you ordered?
     

  4. JD0x0

    JD0x0 Poster Extraordinaire

    Age:
    28
    Feb 22, 2009
    New York
    Have Weber recone the original speaker, IMO.

    Also, FWIW, I believe the speakers that Weber says don't fit are due to tube clearance, if I'm not mistaken. Larger magnet speakers, or alnicos with large bell covers likely wouldn't clear the tubes in the stock cab
     

  5. Wally

    Wally Telefied Ad Free Member

    Mar 17, 2003
    Lubbock, TX
    Have you run the amp through another speaker/speakers? Ime, intermittent noise as you describe does not occur in a speaker. Once the voice starts rubbing, they rub.
     
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  6. JesseS

    JesseS TDPRI Member

    Age:
    39
    9
    Mar 10, 2016
    AZ
    Thank you all for the advice! Yes - I ran the amp through a few other speakers, and no noise was heard. The Eminence looks cool, but the mounting holes are the same style as this Jensen C6V, and the basket seems even deeper by about 10mm, potentially a problem not with tube clearance, but with the transformer... I picked up a Bosch grinding drill bit today and will try to widen the mounting holes on the Jensen. The posts on the amp's baffle are not quite in the right place, I assume not standardized super well back in 1956. btw - I also learned the original speaker I have here, marked 395616, is by Permoflux (EIA code 395), more often used in Magnatone amps, but likely scooped up at a bargain rate by Fender around 1956. Go Google!
     

  7. gordon schumway

    gordon schumway TDPRI Member

    16
    May 5, 2011
    Canada

  8. JesseS

    JesseS TDPRI Member

    Age:
    39
    9
    Mar 10, 2016
    AZ
    Sheesh. I ground and filed the mounting holes on the Jensen C6V, and it now fits nicely onto the posts in the Champ. Of course, however, the chassis does not fit. The output transformer hits the basket of the Jensen. I somehow really doubt that I should start messing with a grinder behind the cone of the speaker - even if I could neatly gouge away room for the transformer, I'm sure I'd fill the coil with metal filings...? A new cab would be cool, but I really just wanted this little guy to shine in its original form, or as close as possible. If Weber can recone the original, that might have to be the way to go; otherwise, I'll just put it back in the amp and live with the noise?! (More likely, I'll also obsessively scour the internet for another 6" speaker with a shallow mount depth and wider basket structure to allow the transformers room.)
     

  9. Dacious

    Dacious Poster Extraordinaire

    Mar 16, 2003
    Godzone
    Have you tried re-orienting the speaker on it's mounts? There might be a position where the cutouts clear.
     
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  10. JesseS

    JesseS TDPRI Member

    Age:
    39
    9
    Mar 10, 2016
    AZ
    Yes - tried rotating the speaker every way possible, but the basket / frame is uniform and hits the same way at each orientation. As I have already voided any chance of returning the C6V, I might go ahead and try to modify the frame. I also saw that the Mod6-15 Jensen is more shallow and would probably fit, with the same modification to the mounting holes. I wonder if it's a decent sounding speaker?
     

    Attached Files:


  11. Dacious

    Dacious Poster Extraordinaire

    Mar 16, 2003
    Godzone
    Weber makes a 6" signature model - the 8" alnico was quite shallow and fitted the reissue closely.
     

  12. JesseS

    JesseS TDPRI Member

    Age:
    39
    9
    Mar 10, 2016
    AZ
    Thanks again! The Weber stuff is all excellent, but the site still says the 6" signature series will not fit the original tweed Champ. I'll call tomorrow to find out if that's about the mounting holes or the basket / frame. I went at the Jensen with a snipper tool and cut away part of the basket to try to clear the output transformer, but the spider of the speaker is right there, and any more modification would cause damage. I see the Mod6-15 speaker runs the same frame, just a smaller magnet, so that also will not fit. I'm beginning to think there is nothing available in new production that would be a direct plug-in here. If there were more than a handful of folks with this issue, I'd say we've discovered a potential business idea here! Then again... I usually find that my "problems" are too esoteric... Here's a pic of the '56 Champ with its buddies here, a '65 Princeton Reverb, a '65 Champ, and a modified Blues Jr. in a pine cabinet. amps.JPG
     
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  13. charlie chitlin

    charlie chitlin Doctor of Teleocity Silver Supporter

    Age:
    56
    Mar 17, 2003
    Spring City, Pa
    I take my chances on ebay with old alnico pulls. I seldom pay more than 20 bucks and am seldom disappointed.
     
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  14. JesseS

    JesseS TDPRI Member

    Age:
    39
    9
    Mar 10, 2016
    AZ
    An update, for all interested...

    I bought a 6" speaker on eBay pulled from a new Fender Champ 600. It has the right frame / basket dimensions to fit into the 1956 Champ. However, I still had to relocate, re-drill, and Dremel new mounting holes for the screw posts for the speaker to fit on the baffle and not contact the output transformer. An hour of drilling, grinding, and filing later, the new speaker actually fits! And... it sounds AWFUL! No wonder folks have been replacing these Champ 600 speakers on the new amps. It's tinny and thin sounding with gritty, almost particulate-sounding break-up, negating all the charm of this precious old amp. Sheesh. I honestly prefer the sound of the original Permoflux alnico, even if it is blown.

    I have to conclude that there is no currently manufactured 6" speaker that will work properly with a 6" 1950s Fender Champ.

    A couple shops offered to attempt reconditioning my original Permoflux speaker, but without any guarantees. Others have warned against buying old alnico pulls on eBay because of the likelihood that the old hide glues and papers are just as likely to need reconditioning as my own speaker.

    One "solution" would be to be to build a new baffle, either to mount a 6" speaker lower inside the cabinet or to fit an 8" speaker. This work would entail removing and reusing the original grill cloth to preserve a fully original front on my amp, or using a reproduction grill cloth and storing the original, complete baffle in the closet.

    I think I'm just going to leave the old speaker as it is for now. The modified Jensen C6V and "Special Design" Fender Champ 600 speaker are going to the misc. stuff bin, unless anyone might have a use for them?!
     

  15. Wally

    Wally Telefied Ad Free Member

    Mar 17, 2003
    Lubbock, TX
    A new baffleboard with new cloth and a good new 8" would be my suggestion.
     

  16. dan40

    dan40 Tele-Holic

    828
    Aug 19, 2015
    Richmond Va
    If it wasn't such a nice vintage amp, the easy way would be to drill another mounting hole and rotate the OT just enough to clear the speaker. I can certainly understand you not wanting to go that route with this though.
     

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