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10k or 11.5k 0038 for pine?

Discussion in 'Just Pickups' started by Telegraphonic, Aug 28, 2017.

  1. Telegraphonic

    Telegraphonic TDPRI Member

    50
    Feb 4, 2017
    Memphis
    Putting together old growth pine body and wanted to ask people that've played or are familiar with both what would be better choice. I've no experience with tonal properties of pine. I play dirty blues with reverb. Any help would be great.
     

  2. Antigua Tele

    Antigua Tele Tele-Afflicted

    Jun 2, 2014
    west coast
    This is possibly the most arcane question I've ever seen asked here.
     
    nojazzhere likes this.

  3. ftbtx

    ftbtx Tele-Afflicted Silver Supporter

    Ihave the 10K in mine and I like it; never tried the hotter version.
     
    Telegraphonic likes this.

  4. Derek Kiernan

    Derek Kiernan Friend of Leo's

    Sep 7, 2008
    Princeton, NJ
    Well, what are you looking at, or what are you looking for? DC resistance independently doesn't tell you much, so it's better to start with particular pickups and figure out where you're trying to go from there.
     
    Gibson, Telegraphonic and Iago like this.

  5. heffus

    heffus Tele-Meister

    472
    Apr 20, 2014
    cHICAGO
    When you consider all the factors that go into determining your guitar sound, I don't think 1.5k of dc in either direction is gonna prevent you from doing your thing. The hotter one is likely to have slightly more mids/less treble, but all that can be made up for with those knobs on your amp and guitar.
     
    Telegraphonic likes this.

  6. puddin

    puddin Tele-Meister

    362
    Apr 14, 2010
    Punta Gorda, florida
    I have both.. Don Mare 0038 @ 10k in my Kirn Barnbuster, and 11.5 in my 72 tele custom. Both great pickups.. Get the 11.5 just killer.. if you want 10k just roll off the volume. Cheers
     
    Telegraphonic likes this.

  7. Derek Kiernan

    Derek Kiernan Friend of Leo's

    Sep 7, 2008
    Princeton, NJ
    The main difference is inductance, not resistance. Inductance interacts with the cable capacitance and gives you a resonance, like this:
    [​IMG]
    (It's a Strat pickup in this example)

    You increase your inductance by 2x or your cable capacitance by 2x, and you're going to get something very very similar. A Tele bridge pickup can easily be 2x the inductance of a Strat pickup.

    You can't really just roll back the volume and get 10k or adjust your amp to get the same highend, because it's a spiky resonance and a dramatic rolloff above, not just a general attenuation of highend.


    The good news about all of this is you can change capacitance via small capacitors with whatever cable you're using to get exactly what you want. If you're using high inductance pickups and high capacitance cable, you have much less versatility, and much less ability to choose what you want to do. A lower inductance pickup will almost always allow you greater coloration options than a higher inductance one, if the designs are similar.
     
    Wyzsard and puddin like this.

  8. JD0x0

    JD0x0 Poster Extraordinaire

    Age:
    28
    Feb 22, 2009
    New York
    Wood sound is NOT predictable in that manner. You're not going to have any pro come in here and go '10K! everyone know's pines best with 10K!'

    First, as Derek said, it's the inductance mostly. DCR doesn't tell you much. 11K of what 43awg wire? 42 awg wire? 44 gauge? 11K on each of these wires will sound and perform very differently.

    Everything else equal: more windings = more inductance, which = lower frequency resonant peak and less highs overall.



    Doesn't really work like that. The inductance will be different. Reducing the output will not make a hotter pickup perform like a lower inductance one. The right Treble bleed may help mimic it by increasing high end you perceive. You could also use capacitance to get a 10k pickup to mimic the resonant frequency of a 11.5k pickup, if you wanted. I just dont want a misconception that rolling back volume on 'hotter' pickups mimics lower inductance pickups. There's a lot more at play than 'output' here.
     
    puddin and telemnemonics like this.

  9. telemnemonics

    telemnemonics Doctor of Teleocity

    Age:
    58
    Mar 2, 2010
    Maine
    This would work if you believe in the gospel of tonewood: 10k for pine and 11.5k for ash. Assuming it's ash under the finish I'm assuming is on the ash that I assume has that fine ash tone. And assuming that the pine is white pine or pitch pine or punk pine or knotty pine and not yellow pine or Southern pine or heavy pine or repurposed flooring pine. Also assuming Ron didn't use the heavy 3m epoxy and instead used the lighter airier imported Chinese epoxy, along with the assumption that the worm hole to wood ratio fell below 2:10.
     
    puddin likes this.

  10. puddin

    puddin Tele-Meister

    362
    Apr 14, 2010
    Punta Gorda, florida
    Wow.. You can always learn on this form. Great post. I remember Don Mare demo one of his hotter pickups.. He mentions if you roll off the volume .. more normal pickups. I know nothing about pickups..to my ears, both are great pickups.
     
    Telegraphonic likes this.

  11. Rob DiStefano

    Rob DiStefano Poster Extraordinaire Vendor Member

    Age:
    72
    Mar 3, 2003
    NJ via TX
    it's not about the "K" factor. the pickup resistance data is just a buncha nonsense dreamed up by music industry bean counters looking to blitz us all with smoke and mirrors, to best sell their wares and obfuscate what's most important to a guitarist.

    it's not about the wood, or the metal, or the plastic, or the strings - that stuff is just there to hold the strings and become a platform for the pickup(s) and the circuit it/they feed.

    it's about YOU and YOUR ears.

    it's yer brain and fingers that will ultimately shape the tone, no matter what pickup(s) is/are used.

    it's at best about how much treble you'd like to have on tap and at yer fingertips. all passive pickups are built with the most amount of treble they can deliver, and it all starts to dissipate whence they're stuck into a guitar circuit.

    so, think about the music genre you most play, or want to play, and then decide what amount of treble tone/frequencies will best be an aid to yer brain and fingers.

    "dirty blues"? ANY pickup will do just fine, as long as yer brain and fingers are up to the task. look at all the blues guitar heroes out there in guitar land, and the HUGE diversity of pickup types they've employed in making great music, for decades. see what i mean?
     

  12. Antigua Tele

    Antigua Tele Tele-Afflicted

    Jun 2, 2014
    west coast
    If two pickup are identical, aside from DC resistance, including making use of the same wire gauge, then DC resistance will relate closely to the wind count, with relates directly to the inductance, so DC resistance is not useless IF you are sure those other things match also. Different magnets, screws, coil shapes, etc. will render DC resistance almost useless as a means of comparison.

    Often it's hard to know which wire gauge is used, so you're left in the dark there, but often times you can infer what it mostly likely is. In this case that it's clear that it's 43 AWG, so it's 15% over wound 43 AWG, and the increase in inductance would be some amount above 15%, so it would be a slightly darker pickup, as advertised.

    The fact that so many pickups on the market use 42 AWG and exactly the same parts means that DC resistance is actually surprisingly indicative, with both Fender and vintage PAF type pickups. The curve ball mostly comes from hot pickups with 43 and 44 AWG. Is that hot pickups a low wind 44 AWG or a hot wound wind 43 AWG? Hard to say, you have to look at inductance in that case. JohnDH was saying this for a while, it took me some time to come around to the same conclusion.

    I did some testing where I wound a bunch of pickups to the same wind count and the same gauge of wire http://guitarnuts2.proboards.com/thread/7933/coil-tension-electrical-values-experiment I and found that the inductance only drifted by about 100mH, or about 4% of the total inductance with AlNiCo cores. The drift would be even less with steel core pickups. Probably the bigger problem with DC resistance is that it changes with temperature, so two pickups might both be spec'd at 6k, but you don't know if those are derived from colder or warmer readings.
     
    Last edited: Aug 29, 2017

  13. screamin eagle

    screamin eagle Poster Extraordinaire

    Oct 9, 2008
    S. CA
    Man, there's more truth in this than you can shake a stick at. Makes me want to buy a pickup just because of this unadulterated honesty.
     
    Telegraphonic likes this.

  14. Telegraphonic

    Telegraphonic TDPRI Member

    50
    Feb 4, 2017
    Memphis
    Thank you for all the information, friends.
     

  15. static111

    static111 Tele-Meister

    192
    Aug 29, 2009
    Aiel Waste
    What do you have in the neck of your barnbuster? And does it match well with the 0038?
     

  16. puddin

    puddin Tele-Meister

    362
    Apr 14, 2010
    Punta Gorda, florida
    Don Mare's "The 54" in the neck. Yes , its the perfect match with the 0038 to my ears. The 54 is the best neck pickup I ever played. You can always talk to Don, if you have questions. Cheers
     
    static111 likes this.

  17. Gin Mill Cowboy

    Gin Mill Cowboy TDPRI Member

    99
    Apr 5, 2014
    New Jersey
    I have Don Mare Hayrides in my Kirn Barnbuster. What a sublime combination.
     
    puddin and static111 like this.

  18. misterdontmove

    misterdontmove Tele-Meister

    266
    Mar 25, 2011
    Connecticut
    Guitar, neck, pickups, pots, caps, strings, cables, amps, hands and ears. It's a huge, complex combination of events that result in your tone. TDPRI is a great place to find a starting point for your lifelong tone quest. Godspeed my friend!
     

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