church guitarists: getting pushed out of the mix at the boar

[Matt Plescher]

I don't play at church for pride, and I'm mainly a rhythm player anyway, but myself and the
other guitarists (including the lead) often find we get sort of lost in the mix to the point of
not even being audible. I know this from the weeks I am off and am sitting out in the
crowd.

It's kind of a touchy issue, and it often seems like we come off as complaining because
we want to show off and be promininent in the mix. I just want to be able to pick the
guitar out in the sound. Sometimes I see the hands moving but can't hear any guitar...

Anyone else fight this in thier church band?

Cheers
Matt

[Tom A.]

Matt, I know exactly what you mean. I played with a POD at our P&W service. Every now and then, one of my guitar buddies that doesn't play in church would tell me that he couldn't hear me and I need to turn it up.
Worse than that, sometimes the guy in the booth would forget to turn me on. I guess I looked like a fool on the stage pointing to my guitar and waving, about song later he would see me and turn me on. i am really not a complainer so I just went along. Finally I got tired of just being up there and now I carry my amp. I really don't want to be just loud but i do want to be heard and be a part of the service.

Tom

[bj]

:? Yep - it happens down under too. Sometimes there's just too many instruments and singers. I prefer, and ask, to play in smaller "emsemble" type groupings wherever possible. I run a line to the mix from my amp. If I think I'm not audible I just turn up a bit. But we are at the mercy of the guys on sound aren't we? However it's nice when someone comes up after the service and says they enjoyed your playing. It's a priviledge to hear we've helped someone praise God. :D

[James]

somtimes it all about befriending the soud guy, after all its usually a pretty sucky and thankless job. (and usually performed by individuals with untrained hands and ears) I try to compliment the mix and get others to tell the sound guy that the guitar need to be louder. :D

[alabubba]

It happens a lot, and I think a big part of the reason is that it is hard to be sure that there is someone who understands what a musical mix is at the board. The other reason is that many church sound systems do not cover the room evenly.

I always play through an amp, with a microphone stuck in front of it going into the house. However, I really try to be considerate of the others on the stage and maintain my stage volume at a reasonable level. My kids sit in different parts of the church, and tell me how the mix was after each service, and although it has taken awhile, it seems that I'm usually about right these days. Fortunately, there are several people who really like the way I play and want to hear, and they will go to the sound guy and ask him to turn me up if they can't hear me. That has helped immensely, because I haven't had to complain on my own behalf.

[Silverface]

It's an ongoing problem for me as well.

Unfortunately, it seems "sound guys" and "people who know how to use a soldering iron" are synonymous to many people in charge. We have ONE sound guy out of 5 who knows his stuff, studies mixing and can work the equipment blindfolded. The rest are simply guys with an electronics background....

[Michael Murphy]

It's a common problem in church settings.

Very often, the sound guy isn't really a sound guy, and frequently doesn't even have any musical background- he's just a volunteer that somebody showed how to turn on the power switch and push the sliders.

Couple that with with old line board members or elders that don't think church is the place for guitars (and drums), and you will always be butting heads.

A few years ago I was fortunate enough to wind up at a church with an ex-hippie preacher who used to play bass in the '60s and '70s, and a couple of very talented singer/songwriter brothers with some Nashville experience under their belts that could sing amazing harmonies.

We put together a very nice band- two guitars alternating between acoustic-electrics, and electrics (Tele & Les Paul), bass, keyboard, and drums. I ran the board, and I mixed it like it was a real concert- you could hear all the nuances.

It was pretty scary for the old hard-core Nazarene congregation at that first service, especially when they walked in and saw the double-bass drum kit, with two floor toms and a full cymbal complement (splashes, rides, chinas- I think the guy had about five of them set up- and everything was miked).

The two brothers wrote some amazing original material, re-interpreted standard hymns and worship songs, and included covers from groups like the Newsboys and DC Talk. We were careful to never exceed comfortable volume levels, but the details and dynamics in the music were always there.

Many church-goers, clergy, and board members don't realize how powerful music can be in that setting, but if you can get everybody on the same page and do it right, it can really move people.

Besides, it's kind of a treat to see a preacher deliver a hell-fire and damnation sermon, then step back from the pulpit and strap on his bass for the altar call.......;¬)

[Jay N.]

We have all kinds of sound problems for the reasons noted. The acoustic guitar player and the bassist are turned off at the board as often as not and the sound "volunteers" don't seem to realize this (or realize that the acoustic guitarist actually has a volume control on his guitar).

I play my electrics through an amp wedged in the corner and pointing up at the rafters. I don't mike it and I'd never use a POD...we aren't that loud anyway. I blast the drummer and some of the other people where I sit, sometimes I seem too loud to the choir, but out in the congregation, I'm just audible. In fact, due to the shape of the room, I'm only audible to 2/3 of the congregation. But, such are the compromises that you have to put up with in a room like that where it is difficult to get a good sound mix.

[Tom A.]

Silverface, you said you had one out of five that knew his stuff about mixing, consider yourself lucky, most churches, including mine don't have any that really knows what is going on. I realize that these guys are volunteers and don't get paid so I guess they are doing the best they can, although it does seem like they could at least turn you on . I have often wondered why we play the piano and organ player and not the sound guy. I believe if we did pay them, we could get someone who knows what they are doing.

Tom

[MLT]

We have four or five sound guys who rotate. We never know who will be running sound until the Sunday morning run thru.

One guy (older), goes for what we in the band call the "Gaither Mix" - VOCALS!!!! > Piano > everything else waayyy down in the mix.

A couple of the sound guys are college age. We know that when they are running the board, that the mix will be more to our liking. But I suppose having the band more forward is not to the liking of some of our older members. Fortunately, our Pastor is deliberately hands-off about that kind of stuff (God bless him, non-musicians trying to micro-manage something they don't understand is the worst of all possible scenarios).

Our teams rotate personnel a lot. Singers sign up for one week per month. We use a couple of different bass players and drummers. It's all very asynchronous. We just view whichever sound guy we happen to draw on a given Sunday as another band member and adjust accordingly. So when the older guy mixes, we just know the vocals will be more prominent and try to work with that as best we can.

Variety can be a good thing if you have the right attitude.

[DADGAD]

Matt, I struggle with that, too. If an instrument is not "featured" in the song, the sound guyz often kill me in the mix. It's a common error for the inexperienced sound person to make. Killing an instrument in the mix is like turning off one color on your TV.

Which reminds me, have y'all seen this one?



The Link: http://www.stirlingaudioservices.com/ray.htm

[tom grossheider]

MLT covers it quite well. I think you have to watch your heart in these things, if in fact you are playing in church for the right reasons. You stated that you don't play for pride, which is a good thing. I've struggled with this too, but eventually came to the conclusion that I would do the very best with what I have and can exert control over (my heart, rig, tone and playing ability) and leave the rest to God (and how He leads the soundman to determine what is best for that particular song, etc). Do your best, and don't worry too much about it. It will all work out for the best. We do have one sound guy that is a guitar LOVER and thinks the awesome church sound system is his own personal stereo and CRANKS the guitar solos when there are some. Kind of funny really.

[Tim Swartz]

Man, this is a topic that comes up weekly, especially now that the 6 or so pickers meet together in a small group (currently doing Lee Strobel's A Case for Faith). I know we serve an audience of One, and that I should just be grateful for the opportunity to serve, but I like to hear the guitars, and I really don't like the idea of playing "air guitar". Last Sunday after the first service one of the guitarists said the acoustic was thin (the sound guys seem to really like that low pass filter button) and the electric was almost non-existent. I asked one of the other guitarists, who often helps sort out the sound system, if he would mind hanging out by the board, also mentioning the comments on the first service.... What a turn around! Got lots of comments to the effect of, "Man, I could really hear the guitars"...or "Really liked that solo...". In the case of this particular sound man, I believe it is just the fact that he is not a contemporary p/w kinda guy. He likes hymms, so piano and vocals are the focus, drums, bass and acoustic guitar are an afterthought and electric guitar is just an annoyance. Without the guitar guy assisting the sound guy, there would be lilttle or no electric.

Tim

[Michael Murphy]

I've been trying to find that pic for a long time!!

[DADGAD]

Glad you like it, Michael. I got it from one of the other guitarists at my church. We have three bands and a year ago were discussing this issue.

One weekend that my team was not on, I went into the sound booth to watch the mix-master. The knob tweaking was continuous throughout the service. That's REAL SCARY! What are pre-service sounds checks for anyway?

A possible solution is for the band & sound crew to get together sometime to work on the sound mix.

Having a sound man on the platform during rehearsal can be helpful, too.

Just my 0.02$

Gary

[Spanky]

Well there are several issues that come into play here and some are shared with "secular" bands too.
Guitars and electronic equipment are still relatively "young" in the worship setting. We should make a concerted effort when forming or rehearsing in the worship setting, to have "sound reinforcement" folks be in attendance and training with the worship group at all times--believe it or not --the sound guys and gals should be considered part of the worship group ! Yes they can make or break the "leading of the congregation to the Lord " just as much as a good or bad performance by a singer or instrumentalist. Now that sound equipment has become so efficient (you don't have to have that stack anymore to be heard --you gotta have a mic connected to the board!) you are really at the mercy of your sound re-inforcement ! Be as concerned about your "sound" through the house as you are about the "tone" of your guitar and amp. Don't adopt the "Hey [I sound good[/i] attitude--it won't help you to bring about the major point of Praise and Worship in the contemporary format---("bringing brothers and sisters into the presence of The Lord")

Hey Paul thanks for letting this kinda "religious" thread go on--the church guitar players here ,I'm sure appreciate it !--thanks Paul

[trag-o-caster]

I started out playing in my mom's penecostal church. The only PA was just a little Realistic mixer/amp, and small speaker hung from the ceiling. Nothing but vocals were miked. This was back in the late 60's - early 70's. We just turned our amps up and let 'em rip.

I haven't played in church since I was 17, but the same problem translates into the barrooms and clubs as well. That's why, whenever it's feasible, I really like to use a small PA for just the vocals, and turn the amps up with no mikes on them. I can't tell you how many times I've found out the hard way that the rhythm player will be louder than bombs while my lead guitar wasn't even heard at all. I've done live radio broadcasts where I didn't have a clue as to what it sounded like until I heard a tape of the show later. The bass, drums, rhythm guitar, everything will be WAY out front, and my guitar will be 40 miles down the road and swamped with reverb.

Occasionally you have to find a diplomatic way to approach a soundman about these things and usually, after calmly explaining the problem, they'll realize that you do know what you're talking about, and will work with you. Sometimes you get a soundman that just refuses to budge. I've had them stick mics right dead center of the dust cap on the speaker. After I move it where I like it, they'll come back, reprimand me, and move it back to the center. I'll just keep moving it back. I'm a stickler about mic placement on the speaker.

Sometimes you just want to roll in a Twin Reverb, and turn it on 10, but you can't really do that either. Bottom line is, your just at the sound guys mercy. Better to make friends with him, and find a peaceful solution. Maybe get to the gig WAY early and do your own personal soundcheck. If the guy is not willing to work with you, or bend a little here and there, you're just out of luck. Time to roll in that Twin! Good luck! Trag.

[Butch Snyder]

I have played in several churches as well as praise bands. Everyones' a bit different than the other. I played in a Country church in Chattanooga that was home to a touring quartet. They were so into the "band" thing that they let the band actually take solos.

The church I am a member of now is just starting with a praise band. It's broken up into two parts. Band and vocalists. All in all, everyone gets along and knows the real reason we're there. However, there are some instances when I have to take the praise leader aside and tell him that he's got the piano and keyboard up too loud. I was having a real problem a while back. I was only taking my BOSS multi-effects unit with me and not my amp. The unit has a preamp. I'd just do into a direct box and into the board. My unit has an amp simulator which is decent; so tone wasn't ever an issue. But, he'd keep me so far down in the mix that I could never hear myself. I started bringing my own amp again; if only to serve as a monitor for me. That has really worked out. The most importent thing though, is that I really prayed about it. I didn't want my own needs and wants to come before what God had intended.

As far as the mixing board goes, We set that during our rehearsals; which are right before the service. We have someone basically stand there to mute and unmute everyone.

Cheers,

[Pvee]

I don't play in a band but play special music solo's.

Last time I depended on the sound tech, I took and acoustic guitar and had to use a mic.

He was talking with someone when I started my patriotic solo around veterans day and did not even turn the mic up during the whole song even though he did fine in rehearsel.

So now I take my acoustic amp, and control the sound myself.
I can even control my background tracks if I want to.

Other times I use a tele or archtop for different selections, but also take my own amp.

Notice I added TELE content !!!

[Matt Plescher]

Originally Posted by Pvee

Notice I added TELE content !!!

I just sort of assume that we are all talking about Teles as the instrument of
choice in this discussion. :D

Cheers
Matt

[Aaron G]

I'm really glad to be playing where I am instead of where I used to! I can't hear myself most of the time and was frustrated with that for awhile, but if it's a trial or test I'd rather accept it than let it be an issue. Be happy!

[davidmenke]

during the sound check I would use a wireless and walk out into the pews or chairs to check the mix.
Soundman was always the culprit.
Started buying the soundman Starbucks and Donuts, and sometimes helping with the mix in other worship groups and that can make a difference.
Also start the song with a guitar lead in, and they have to give you some volume.
I have seen the soundperson get ticked at the "pompus musician" and mix him out of the mains , but give them plenty of monitors...
Life in the church, is man, mixing, not God...
You are there for worship , but if all you hear in the mains is keys or piano, why have the guitar?
Love it when a main stream recording artist comes to a church.... you will always hear there guitar... basically most bands will bring there own soundman....
Hey great idea for your worship team... develope your own soundman!!!

[Amos]

Great thread with lots of informed and interesting comments.

Sometimes I think of taking a break from playing because of the mix issue. I can praise just as much with my voice as with my guitar, and it's a lot cheaper and easier to sing in the congregation than to play an instrument

The board guys are stubborn, and I sure ain't gonna spend Starbucks $ on them for a 'free' gig. I also know that they do a lot of extra stuff, like driving the church bus and showing up on weeknights to run the board for rehearsals, so I generally don't hassle 'em.

Last Sunday I turned waaaaaay down to where nobody could hear me, and just before second service, the leader told me the sound guy said I should turn it up - see, miracles do happen!

I just sort of assume that we are all talking about Teles as the instrument of choice in this discussion.

As an aside, the beauty of the compartmentalization of the new board software is that there are specific sections dedicated to the Tele. That means never having to say you're sorry for not talking Tele in a general interest section like this. 8)

[tom grossheider]

As a rule, I always have some volume on tap during sound check. And I think someone already mentioned this, to turn it up a bit when the band starts.....
For Tele content, I notice that the Tele really cuts thru the mix much better than the Strat. But the goldtop Les Paul cuts thru even better!!! There, I said it and I'm not ashamed......

[TelecasterSam]

[/quote]So now I take my acoustic amp, and control the sound myself.
I can even control my background tracks if I want to.

I think this is the best advice I've seen yet. Take your own sound system! Set it the way you want to, not that you want to blast anyone out, just set it the way you know is right. Most church soundmen are great volunteers but are not sound technicians. Make it easy on them and yourself. I think I'll buy an acoustic amp to give my acoustic guitar the little boost it needs to be heard in our small church and not depend on mic placement, plugging into the board, etc. Anyone recommend a certain amp? Crate, Peavey, Fender??

[DADGAD]

Originally Posted by TelecasterSam

I think I'll buy an acoustic amp to give my acoustic guitar the little boost it needs to be heard in our small church and not depend on mic placement, plugging into the board, etc. Anyone recommend a certain amp? Crate, Peavey, Fender??

IMHO, TRACE ELLIOT acoustic amps rule. I've never heard an acoustic sound less than stellar thru one. 8)

YMMV.

Have a great Lord's day, everyone.

Gary

[Tim Swartz]

For the last 2 weeks we've had the guitars prevalent in the mix. Last week (Easter), we had horns and strings, and Jack (our ace) on electric. If there was ever a time to be buried in the mix, this would be it, but on the contrary, I heard every chord, his leads could have been a bit hotter, but I was thrilled to hear the rhythm. I made sure to let the sound guy know that IMO, the mix never sounded better. Yesterday I was on, and heard siimilar comments about being able to hear the guitars. What may have influenced this was a conversation that took place about 3 weeks ago between Jack and myself that was overheard by the new music director (also a guitarist). Jack had just finished, and I'd come up to talk to him. He asked me how I'd liked the Leslie sound he'd come up with in his Pod. I told him that I'd not heard it, and the only time I could hear him was on one song he played an intro for. The director overheard this and a conversation regarding "air-guitar" ensued. I said that if you see a guys hands moving, and hear nothing from it, why even have it. He was in complete agreement. Apparently this was communicated to the sound guys (we had a different one yesterday). In our case, it may have just been just a matter of getting the right person involved.

[Wahwax]

It happens to mee too.

Someone needs to give the soundman a good lesson in how to run sound. A good tip someone showed me once was for the soundman to listen for every channel one by one. Start at channel 1 on the board. Can it be heard? Does it have the proper prominence in the mix? Go to channel 2. Can it be heard? Does it have the proper prominence in the mix? etc.... Then repeat. It's easy for a soundman to hear good music coming from the stage even when there is an instrument or voice missing. Another problem is that if the soundman knows the songs well he can "imagine" he's hearing the parts. Kind of singing along in his head.

[KenB]

I used to go to the board with a Baggs Paracoustic DI as did the keys. I've gotta say this was SO frustrating. I'm sure I wasn't heard at all. The sound guy is so paranoid that someone will complain about the band being "too loud" and he has no "ear" for what a modern worship mix should sound like. He favors the all vocals, no instruments mix.

I can't tell you how many strings I broke from strumming harder because I couldn't hear myself. Finally, after months of trying to explain to this guy that the band was lost in the mix, we gave up and put amps on the stage so we at least could hear ourselves. Best thing we ever did.

However, we really need to be mindful of volume now lest be be chucked out of the church!

Blessings,
kEn

[Wahwax]

Originally Posted by KenB

..
However, we really need to be mindful of volume now lest be be chucked out of the church!

Blessings,
kEn

We let a teenager run sound one Sunday as a fill in. He cranked it. You should have heard the POSITIVE comments we got. I'm sorry, but it just sounds better cranked.

[KenB]

We let a teenager run sound one Sunday as a fill in. He cranked it. You should have heard the POSITIVE comments we got. I'm sorry, but it just sounds better cranked.

I agree. I love it loud! But, some buildings can't handle a lot of volume. Our building has a low ceiling and holds about 300. Gets loud fast. I have a rule of thumb for our band. "If you can't hear them singing back at you, you're too loud". This has worked well for us.

Blessings,
kEn

[Wahwax]

Originally Posted by DADGAD

Which reminds me, have y'all seen this one?

I LOVE that one!!!

[Wahwax]

Originally Posted by KenB

I agree. I love it loud! But, some buildings can't handle a lot of volume. Our building has a low ceiling and holds about 300. Gets loud fast. I have a rule of thumb for our band. "If you can't hear them singing back at you, you're too loud". This has worked well for us.

Blessings,
kEn

We have something like a 20 foot ceiling. We could probably hold 400-500 if we had enough chairs. Right now it's set for about 230.