Moving While Playing

[freeradical]

Tell her to close her eyes and worship.

[freeradical]

WWJD??? Maybe call her a brood of vipers or a white washed sepulcher?

[ravindave_3600]

Originally Posted by buckpeckerwood

Christianity, since the 7th Century, has been anti-rhythm.

FMI, what happened in the7th century?

[buckpeckerwood]

In the 7th Century, the Catholic Church made it impermissible for women to play drums. Back then it was common for women to play frame drums (like tambourines) in secular contexts. The rationale for the ban was that Muslim women played drums, so it was a heathen thing. That was the beginning of the decline of rhythm in the West.

Today, any child age 2 and above in Turkey can dance to a 9/8. Most people in the West with music degrees can't even count to nine. The anti-rhythm thing is alive and well in denominations that don't allow dancing. I think it's all quite silly.

[ravindave_3600]

Originally Posted by buckpeckerwood

In the 7th Century, the Catholic Church made it impermissible for women to play drums. Back then it was common for women to play frame drums (like tambourines) in secular contexts. The rationale for the ban was that Muslim women played drums, so it was a heathen thing. That was the beginning of the decline of rhythm in the West.

Interesting! I'd never heard of that. Where can I read up on it?

[buckpeckerwood]

 “Christians are not allowed to teach their daughters
singing, the playing of instruments or similar things
because, according to their religion, it is neither good
nor becoming.” Commandments of the Fathers,
Superiors and Masters, Circa A.D. 657.

[playanotherchord]

Oh my. That rule is just so dumb. I find it sad that so many young drummers cannot play 3/4 to save their lives. Better ones can't play 6/8 without making it sound country-ish.

[Ptrallan01]

?????

Strange comment like most of these threads.

Couple of questions for US!!

When we are on stage are we worshipping, leading worship or ministering?

If we are worshipping then we aught to take to heart that we must give God our best.

If we are leading worship then we can ONLY go where other's can follow.

If we are ministering, then we MUST GIVE what others need to move past the place where they are.

Do we resist or rebel against the comments of attendees because it impinges on our freedom?

If so then we must yield our freedom and wash their feet NO MATTER HOW BAD THEY SMELL!

Do we consider music and singing in and of themselves worship?

If so then we have sadly and badly missed the mark of what it means to worship!!! These are at best means of expressing worship and not worship itself.

Have we let music or dance or singing or song selection or electric vs acoustic or any other style matter interfere with our fellowship?

Then we have failed to understand the diversity that God seeks. It goes beyond racial barriers, generation gaps, gender differences and personal preferences.

Do we understand the differences in serving as musicians to HELP OTHERS WORSHIP and worshipping ourselves?

One is a calling to serve the other is the unbidden response to the reality of God and His salvation.

I love you for Christ sake. Love this woman for His sake. If something we do disturbs others worship we should refrain from it if it is a matter of personal preference. If it is a matter of essential doctrine or the majority of the assembled believers have agreed that this is good for that assembly continue but never ever think that you have to meet your own needs for worship style, equipment type, or movement type when you are in a position of service. If you dare to participate in leading worship in any form then it must be in a form that is acceptable first to God and then to the members present.

Reveiw your answers to these questions periodically and watch them change. Then ask yourself what's really important. Read Roman's 14 to help you.

I have reached a point where I must go worship without the responsibility/burden of service (happens every few months) so Sunday I will visit a church where no one knows me. I won't have to sing, play guitar, shovel snow, preach, pay the bills, counsel those in need or any of the other things I do in service of the needs of our congregation. I get to worship and tell God how much I love Him. I am going to a church that I have never been to and I will enjoy whatever they do as long as they do it unto the Lord.

Love

Peter

[endzone]

The logic in some of the posts here make me think that the lady who is the subject of this thread is posting. My goodness people, you can't scripturally argue cowing down to one person who criticizes you for the way you worship. She should be shamed. I guarantee you Paul would have let her have it.

Jesus was criticized for preaching the gospel....IN THE TEMPLE, by the church leaders. Should he have stopped preaching and teaching? Based on the logic I have read, I think some of you think he should have. That way he wouldn't have offended anyone. And he certainly should've taken the time to evaluate whether or not his preaching was a distraction to others.

Any preacher worth his salt who preaches against sin will get a complaint from a church member (who might even be a deacon or elder). Should he not preach on sin? Should he just preach milk toast sermons so that person doesn't get his feelings hurt?

You should never do anything without filtering it through a loving heart, but we are not expected, much less commanded, to be door mats.

[BoB/335]

Thank You Peter for a very thought provoking response. Some people will understand and others, as we have seen, will refuse to even contemplate.


btw Jesus was NOT criticized by the "church leaders".

"I guarantee you Paul would have let her have it."

Oh really!

[Ptrallan01]

I reread Dougielove's original post to see if that would change my response above and it doesn't!

Some of us have criticized this woman's attitude and I don't think we have enough information to do so! I have spent 12 years doing pastoral counselling and one the thing that I have made it a habit is not trying to change people who aren't in the conversation. This woman isn't here to give us the insight to her comments that we need to make a good judgement. (Jesus tells us in the Sermon on the Mount to Judge not lest we be judged. In John He tells us to judge righteous judgment so we must be careful how we handle things that we only have one view of.) She said that the modern elements and the movement were reasons that some people who wanted to take the guitar out of the service. Perhaps she is one who wants to do that, perhaps she doesn't want to see them go and is trying to prevent that by this conversation. Perhaps in trying to help keep something she approached the wrong person in the wrong way from the right motives. Bottom line is we can't be sure because we can't ask her. I am not prepared to judge her spiritual maturity or worship committment from a second hand conversation.

What I can do is give us some general principles to help guide us through these things. They will come up again and again and again. We must be prepared for them. Again I beg that we all read Romans 14 to see what Paul DID say about these types of difficult interactions! Its right there for us.

Dougielove, you indicated that you told her if she was concentrating on the meaning of the lyrics your movement wouldn't bother her. I THINK she might have been saying she can't do that because of your movment. This can be reduced to the old argument of which came first the chicken or the egg. No chicken the egg couldn't be there, no egg, no chicken birth. And we all know that the Rooster came first anyway so the question is moot!

What is important is that we, as people committed to participate in the worship service make sure that we are working on ourselves and making our decisions by what is right for God first, the community of worshippers next, and then ourselves. Jesus told us that if we wanted to be great we must serve others. How we do that is the rub.

Jesus was often controversial and broke the man made rules of His day. Many of us see ourselves as breaking the man made rules of our day but how many of us are aware that we are in the process of making the man made rules of tomorrow? That is a scary thought.

Well, thanks for taking the time to read my verbosity Bob/335 thanks for your comments. Hope each of you had a wonderful time worshipping with your assembly.

Peter

[endzone]

[quote=BoB/335;733785]

btw Jesus was NOT criticized by the "church leaders".

QUOTE]

OH REALLY?

[BoB/335]

There were no "church leaders" in Jesus' day. There was no church. Jesus WAS criticized by the hypocritical Pharasees and Saducees. I'm sure that you are NOT trying to allign yourself with them. Are you?

"My goodness people, you can't scripturally argue cowing down to one person who criticizes you for the way you worship."

You are probably right there but I am more than sure that there is plenty of Scripture to back putting others first and even above yourself.

"I guarantee you Paul would have let her have it."

I'd like to see an example of that.


I'm sorry to say that I have seen a lot of arrogance from many in this section of the forum. That might seem like a self-righteous remark. As a disclaimer I will again make a statement that I have in the past. I KNOW my character defects. I KNOW how I have reacted to certain situations in the past and I KNOW how I will probably react to some in the future. I certainly don't have things right in my walk. I, however, DO recognize my sins even if I don't always own up to them when I should. Pride problem? Yes! I will not and can not perceive putting others first as "cowing down". And I hope someday that my walk will be as good as my talk!

[Tele-Caster]

Originally Posted by DougieLove

Something interesting happened to me last weekend...

I need to move when I play..........

Well, last weekend, after the service, someone came up to me and said the following:

Why do you move around so much when you play? It's very distracting...... I couldn't concentrate on my prayers with you bopping around like you were.......

I move around because I want to get "into" the music, so I can give my best back to the Lord and to the congregation...........

Have you guys every run into this? Do you guys move around a little/a lot when you play?

I don't know...I thought it was a little frivilous to say that a guitarist swaying side to side disrupted her prayers.

Thanks,
Doug

I'm new around here, and have just returned into worship ministry after a decade-long absence, so my thoughts on the subject might not be all that relevant.

That said, I've never had to deal with the sort of thing Doug illustrated in his post. So, in answer to his question, I haven't personally "run into this."

I suspect that the reason for this is found in my answer to "Do you guys move around a little / a lot when you play?"

I move very little when playing in a corporate worship setting. I basically only move what I have to -right hand for picking, left hand for fretting, and some minor and subtle head movement to "work the mike" for vocals. And that's about it. Think Luther Perkins and you get the idea.

Since I don't move much when leading worship, I don't have to deal with complaints about that which I don't do.


-JP

[ravindave_3600]

Originally Posted by BoB/335

"My goodness people, you can't scripturally argue cowing down to one person who criticizes you for the way you worship."

You are probably right there but I am more than sure that there is plenty of Scripture to back putting others first and even above yourself.

The Bible is pretty clear - we're supposed to be servants. That means, unless I'm assisting you to be immoral, I should try to serve you. Lift you. Submit my will to yours.

Worship style is preference and culture, and not much more. How do I know that? Because I've worshipped on 5 of the 6 inhabited continents (plus some islands!) in at least 11 languages, in classical, contemporary, traditional, country and other-country styles, with instruments I can play and instruments I've never heard of! It wasn't all comfortable, but it was all worship, and I became comfortable in it as I experienced the presence of God and the worshipping heart of the people.

A church can have - probably should have - its basic style preference for worship. That might include guitars, drums, pipe organ or bag pipes, or even homemade maracas constructed from an empty can of Raid with four rocks inside. God doesn't care that much. But when I as a worship leader try to force someone else to conform to my style, I'm just being inflexible, a non-servant.

If the woman at the top of this thread is weak enough that she can't worship with you dancing, be strong enough to not dance. God won't judge you for lovingly not moving, but He will judge you for stubbornness.

(Hey Peter - how was worship yesterday?)

[popthree]

playing devils advocate - we have to be who we are

if someone walked up to me and said ' you don't jump around enough while playing' i could not submit to this persons will in that regard.

[ravindave_3600]

Originally Posted by popthree

playing devils advocate - we have to be who we are

if someone walked up to me and said ' you don't jump around enough while playing' i could not submit to this persons will in that regard.

<- hops up on the 8x10 cab and shakes it like Tina Turner








Actually, while we have to be who we are, most of us are more (and less!) than we let on. As ministers we have a responsibility to the flock to expand beyond our own desires so we can better serve them.

For example, we tell the singers to look up from their music and smile when they sing; not only is that good stage presence but it's also good for attitude. If a choirmember says "That's just not who I am; I prefer to be a frowning-face-in-the-sheetmusic-sort" well, that may be their preference, but it's not really a spiritual issue. They can do it without being false, and serving the congregation means stepping up a little.

If we don't jump around ENOUGH does that mean we're stodgy? Old and unathletic? Young and cool? Laid back? Like Peter said, part of this is understanding WHY the comment was made in the first place. If we can understand that then we can adapt our ministry style to minister to those God lets us serve.

[popthree]

i would be compelled to step down out of the role rather than have to act like someone i'm not.

[Ptrallan01]

Worship was something I did while snow blowing my drive way. I never made it to the downtown church I wanted to visit due to a snow/ice storm. So my wife and I stayed home and enjoyed a day of semi rest which we needed.

Hey Popthree, I like your honesty of being able to step away from something if you couldn't do it! I respect that position.

Bob/335 we new yorkers (BX Boy here) need to mellow out a bit its something about the long island sound, city island fried shrimp and that great pizza that I miss so much that makes us just say what we think! If you get a chance get some of that fresh flounder that will be flowing into smithtown bay in about three weeks!

Peace

[BoB/335]

And all this time I thought it was the water!

[ravindave_3600]

Originally Posted by popthree

i would be compelled to step down out of the role rather than have to act like someone i'm not.

I also appreciate your honesty, but there's another option: do you think maybe the Lord could help you grow to be more than you currently are?

[popthree]

Originally Posted by ravindave_3600

I also appreciate your honesty, but there's another option: do you think maybe the Lord could help you grow to be more than you currently are?

absolutely, He has done that and will continue to do so. However, to ask someone to behave in a way that is completely outside their nature is not what God does. He made us the way we are for a reason.