Those evil guitar solos - Page 2

BoB/335 · January 16th, 2007, 09:47 PM

REVIEWS

“For American music fans, it’s a find like a scientist’s discovery of a new species. The steel guitar is central to country music. But no one outside Southern Pentecostal House of God churches had heard of black gospel steel. Robert Stone a Florida folklorist, stumbled onto the haunting sound when a music-store owner told him about a steady stream of African-American customers for steel-guitar supplies. With an NEA grant, Stone made the first ever compilation tape of five gospel steel masters playing at services and revivals. ‘Sacred Steel’ was an instant hit.”
(Peter Katel — Newsweek)

“Every weekend some of the most astounding slide players in the world perform at the small Keith and Jewel Dominion churches that are part of the Holiness-Pentecostal movement . . . Sonny Treadway, with his godly accurate left hand and bittersweet tones, swings on a homemade 8-string. Shades of Earl Hooker, Glenn Lee’s ‘Call Him By His Name’ is a bluesy masterpiece on an E9-tuned pedal steel with plenty of volume pedal . . . Aubrey Ghent jumps into the modern era with fancy chicken picking and shivery theremin-like solos. His massive-toned, tear it up version of ‘Praise Music’ is wild beyond description . . . ”
(Jas Obrecht — Guitar Player)

teleman53 · January 17th, 2007, 09:06 AM

I agree that you should look at the audience. If there's alot of young people there solo's are probably a good thing. If there's older people go acoustic. I think one of the shocking things that started this topic was my manager is only 23. So age is not always a perfect indicator.

BoB/335 · January 17th, 2007, 09:41 AM

Remember that I said I don't have a problem with guitar solos.

With that said I do have a problem with the following quotes:

"“Every weekend some of the most astounding slide players in the world perform at the small Keith and Jewel Dominion churches"

"Aubrey Ghent jumps into the modern era with fancy chicken picking and shivery theremin-like solos. His massive-toned, tear it up version of ‘Praise Music’ is wild beyond description . . ."

If these are concerts for Christian entertainment then I don't have a problem. If this is Sunday corporate, community worship the IMHO I think this is way out of line. If the gospel needs to be sold by big headliners then I don't know what to say.

Ptrallan01 · January 17th, 2007, 12:04 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BoB/335

Remember that I said I don't have a problem with guitar solos.

With that said I do have a problem with the following quotes:

"“Every weekend some of the most astounding slide players in the world perform at the small Keith and Jewel Dominion churches"

"Aubrey Ghent jumps into the modern era with fancy chicken picking and shivery theremin-like solos. His massive-toned, tear it up version of ‘Praise Music’ is wild beyond description . . ."

If these are concerts for Christian entertainment then I don't have a problem. If this is Sunday corporate, community worship the IMHO I think this is way out of line. If the gospel needs to be sold by big headliners then I don't know what to say.

If they're just there to be headliners I agree with you Bob. That probably isn't good. but If they are there to worship and this style of music leads THAT congregation to focus on God and the players themselves are there to glorify God in they're hearts then it is probably ok.

Again context is a big part of the key as to whether or not its worship. We sign a song called Worship You in the Spirit. Simple three chord song that modulates up a whole step. One day we sang the song and the entire church was enveloped in an outpouring of God's Spirit that we rarely see. It just happened that we recorded the service that day. When we got to rehearsal later in the week the group, musicians and singers asked to hear the recording. I warned them that it is impossible to record the Holy Spirit on any kind of media and then played the recording.

No one could believe how HORRIBLE it was. Off key singer, out of rhythm music, just bad in every way that it could be bad. But if you had been there in the moment, it was one of the greatest worship "experiences" I have ever seen.

Each worshipping group has to do it in a way that they can do together. That is why we have different churches, denominations and styles. Famous people can be holy too, so lets not exclude them from our fellowships.

Peter

JohnSS · January 17th, 2007, 01:24 PM

Rev. Aubrey Ghent is the pastor of his church, not a visiting headliner. He's there every week, and if you see how the congregation responds you'll havea better idea of what I'm talking about. This debate really does sound like it contains a communication/reference gap. Until you actually can see and hear what I'm referring to this sounds very much like the proverbial 4 blind men each trying to describe an elephant.

BoB/335 · January 17th, 2007, 05:30 PM

John,

You are right in one sense. I usually try not to give an opinion without more facts so I apologize about Mr. Ghent. But with that statement following

“Every weekend some of the most astounding slide players in the world perform at the small Keith and Jewel Dominion churches"

it's hard not to come to a conclusion. Also I never said that famous people can't be holy or used by God. I did not move the topic in this directio. A comment was made so I tried to find some info and it sounds like a sales pitch to me.

Ptrallan01
Thanks for you story. It only proves the fact that it is the heart of the people that WORSHIP our God and doesn't have much to do with the skill or level of professionalism in a true worship experience.
(I think I just mixed threads)

Refret · January 17th, 2007, 06:40 PM

There is no way for us humans to judge what is in someones heart at a given moment. We need to be thankful for whatever they are willing to bring to the table. Even if we have the best intentions we all have bad days where the heart is not where it should be. Musically, worship is dealing with the same issues all music deals with. A solo is inappropiate if it is not evocative. It needs to reinforce the message of the song or provide a brief respite to allow the words to be digested. A well executed and properly placed solo will bring emphasis and meaning to the words that follow. If it doesn't reinforce the song it is always inappropriate regardless of setting.

refin · January 17th, 2007, 10:47 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Refret

There is no way for us humans to judge what is in someones heart at a given moment. We need to be thankful for whatever they are willing to bring to the table. Even if we have the best intentions we all have bad days where the heart is not where it should be. Musically, worship is dealing with the same issues all music deals with. A solo is inappropiate if it is not evocative. It needs to reinforce the message of the song or provide a brief respite to allow the words to be digested. A well executed and properly placed solo will bring emphasis and meaning to the words that follow. If it doesn't reinforce the song it is always inappropriate regardless of setting.

Bingo,we have a winner.....

reload in 5 · January 18th, 2007, 05:57 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by popthree

God has a tendency to work in all sorts of things ...whether i approve or not.

My favorite comment

sax4blues · January 18th, 2007, 10:56 PM

I like "solos" when it is musically appropriate for the context of the song. For me this means a 4+/- bar melodic interlude, kind of a contemplative breathing space. I also include intro/outro as solo space, again very melodic in relation to the vocal melody.

What I have difficultly listening to is constant noodling within vocal lines. I have played with "lead" players in church that feel their sole mission is to fill every little space with some kind of "lick", which to me is just random noodling. Let the vocal message stand on it's own, then provide some flow and connection in the turn-arounds.

refin · January 19th, 2007, 01:57 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sax4blues

.

What I have difficultly listening to is constant noodling within vocal lines. I have played with "lead" players in church that feel their sole mission is to fill every little space with some kind of "lick", which to me is just random noodling. .

You mean the infamous " fretboard diarrhea of the annointed"?

teleman53 · January 19th, 2007, 09:41 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Refret

There is no way for us humans to judge what is in someones heart at a given moment. We need to be thankful for whatever they are willing to bring to the table. Even if we have the best intentions we all have bad days where the heart is not where it should be. Musically, worship is dealing with the same issues all music deals with. A solo is inappropiate if it is not evocative. It needs to reinforce the message of the song or provide a brief respite to allow the words to be digested. A well executed and properly placed solo will bring emphasis and meaning to the words that follow. If it doesn't reinforce the song it is always inappropriate regardless of setting.

Thats why i'm a Springsteen fan

broadcaster · January 19th, 2007, 05:02 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Refret

There is no way for us humans to judge what is in someones heart at a given moment. We need to be thankful for whatever they are willing to bring to the table. Even if we have the best intentions we all have bad days where the heart is not where it should be. Musically, worship is dealing with the same issues all music deals with. A solo is inappropiate if it is not evocative. It needs to reinforce the message of the song or provide a brief respite to allow the words to be digested. A well executed and properly placed solo will bring emphasis and meaning to the words that follow. If it doesn't reinforce the song it is always inappropriate regardless of setting.

+1

ravindave_3600 · January 19th, 2007, 05:35 PM

JS Bach had no problem with instrumental solos in worship, and neither do I.

Here's how I evaluate my own tendency toward "OhHeyI'mGonnaTakeARideNow!"ness:

1) Does the solo serve the music or the musician? If it adds to the musical experience and helps the congregation relate to the theme of the song, it's good.

2) Does it glorify God, or the guitarist? Even if it fits the song, if my heart's not right I shouldn't be playing it. I was embarrassed a few months ago when I played at a special event and the other musicians kept urging me to cut loose. I did, and they were impressed, but afterwards I realized I had done it to please them and to show what I could do. I had to apologize, even if THEY didn't understand why.

3) Does it bless the congregation? I play regularly at two churches; one is oriented more toward the words and doesn't care too much about the music, and I don't rock out with them (anymore than I'd play a Bach organ solo [as if I could]). The other church loves the words, but loves the music, too, and we'll let the pianist, the guitarist, even the bass player celebrate Jesus with a lead line for awhile. Since that helps the congregation's experience, it's good.

If we're mindful of the Lord and the people we're serving as we play, our playing is sanctified.

daddyopapa · January 19th, 2007, 05:56 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BoB/335

John,

You are right in one sense. I usually try not to give an opinion without more facts so I apologize about Mr. Ghent. But with that statement following

“Every weekend some of the most astounding slide players in the world perform at the small Keith and Jewel Dominion churches"

it's hard not to come to a conclusion. Also I never said that famous people can't be holy or used by God. I did not move the topic in this directio. A comment was made so I tried to find some info and it sounds like a sales pitch to me.

Ptrallan01
Thanks for you story. It only proves the fact that it is the heart of the people that WORSHIP our God and doesn't have much to do with the skill or level of professionalism in a true worship experience.
(I think I just mixed threads)

I'm a big fan of sacred steel guitar and it might be added that those churches invented that style because they couldn't afford an organ. I have no problem with the statement that the "most astounding slide players in the world" play at that church because I think that our playing for God should be astounding - or as good as we can be. If EVH can be astounding for his master, why not Aubrey Ghent for his Master?

Back to the original question - a guitar solo is great if it is a taseful and melodic paraphrasing of the melody of the song. The guitar is another voice - the expression of the guitarist singing praise like a singer. Typical pentatonic noodling and show boating is wrong.

JohnSS · January 19th, 2007, 09:41 PM

daddyopapa & raveindave_3600: thank you for helping me to articulate the position that I share with you. I was getting frustrated that the other posters weren't understanding me due to lack of familiarity with "Sacred Steel" and similar gospel music type traditions, which were the source of my point.

BoB/335 · January 20th, 2007, 04:12 AM

Well I'm not sure that I'm being understood either. I state again that I have no problem with guitar solos. I have problems with any kind of "sales pitch" that MAY be used to attrack people to a church. And I'm not saying that that is what is happening with Sacred Steel because I don't know enough about that movement. It was a point I made and tried to clarify.

broadcaster · January 20th, 2007, 09:46 AM

Churches with ministry that "holds back" for whatever reason, are definitely becoming more and more IRRELEVANT in today's world. We are all constantly bombarded with entertainment living in todays digital age.

To reach the masses - young (& many old) with the NEVER changing Gospel requires ministry to be real and exciting (did someone say joyful?), not legalistic, prideful, religious dogma.

After all, the Gospel IS exciting!

Hearts need to be changed toward a sincere, joyful relationship with our Lord, not conformed to boring stale religion. Because that jive ain't gonna cut the mustard anymore. Plain truth folks. ;^ )

I'm sure King David's musicians did not have the "I better not play to my utmost because I do not want someone to approach me later and give me a compliment on my performance" attitude-spirit. No, the Bilble says the outsiders where amazed at the way they worshipped. David and his team would probably be thrown out of some churches today for being too radical and way out there, so to speak. All I can say is wait till heaven, no holds barred there for the King! The buildings will shake.

Please read psalms 33, 100 and 150 and you will see why church should be the MOST excting place to be at!!!

Yes and Amen...

daddyopapa · January 21st, 2007, 02:05 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by broadcaster

Churches with ministry that "holds back" for whatever reason, are definitely becoming more and more IRRELEVANT in today's world. We are all constantly bombarded with entertainment living in todays digital age.

To reach the masses - young (& many old) with the NEVER changing Gospel requires ministry to be real and exciting (did someone say joyful?), not legalistic, prideful, religious dogma.

After all, the Gospel IS exciting!

Hearts need to be changed toward a sincere, joyful relationship with our Lord, not conformed to boring stale religion. Because that jive ain't gonna cut the mustard anymore. Plain truth folks. ;^ )

I'm sure King David's musicians did not have the "I better not play to my utmost because I do not want someone to approach me later and give me a compliment on my performance" attitude-spirit. No, the Bilble says the outsiders where amazed at the way they worshipped. David and his team would probably be thrown out of some churches today for being too radical and way out there, so to speak. All I can say is wait till heaven, no holds barred there for the King! The buildings will shake.

Please read psalms 33, 100 and 150 and you will see why church should be the MOST excting place to be at!!!

Yes and Amen...

In fact, David's own wife was judgemental over the exuberance of David's worship of God - and she paid the price.

popthree · January 21st, 2007, 09:27 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by broadcaster

Churches with ministry that "holds back" for whatever reason, are definitely becoming more and more IRRELEVANT in today's world.

this comment gets me to thinking, don't all churches hold back? don't all christians hold back? so i'm not totally sure what is meant by it.... IMO, our very relationship with God is a constant battle of our flesh holding back from Him. I've yet to encounter a church that was not holding back from what they are called to do. this line of thinking, of course, goes far beyond the boundaries of music.

blacklinefish · January 21st, 2007, 09:51 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by playanotherchord

I'm still not real comfortable with the idea of solos. Even if its okay to play well for the Lord.. does playing well have to include solos? My friend was doing 'heart of worship' today and he threw in a guitar solo in the middle of the song.. and he's not the best lead player. I thought it was just unnecessary, especially for a song like that, considering the situation in which it was written.

Okay, the next time some one asks me the definition of IRONY, I hope I remember that!

Reminds me of a former worship leader who, and I am not kidding: "...and now please be seated as we sing Stand Up, Stand Up, for Jesus."

--gh

popthree · January 21st, 2007, 10:13 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by daddyopapa

In fact, David's own wife was judgemental over the exuberance of David's worship of God - and she paid the price.

wasn't most of David's exuberant worship done in relative private?

daddyopapa · January 22nd, 2007, 09:43 AM

2 Samuel chapter 6

16: As the ark of the LORD came into the city of David, Michal the daughter of Saul looked out of the window, and saw King David leaping and dancing before the LORD; and she despised him in her heart.

20: And David returned to bless his household. But Michal the daughter of Saul came out to meet David, and said, "How the king of Israel honored himself today, uncovering himself today before the eyes of his servants' maids, as one of the vulgar fellows shamelessly uncovers himself!"

21: And David said to Michal, "It was before the LORD, who chose me above your father, and above all his house, to appoint me as prince over Israel, the people of the LORD -- and I will make merry before the LORD.

22: I will make myself yet more contemptible than this, and I will be abased in your eyes; but by the maids of whom you have spoken, by them I shall be held in honor."

23: And Michal the daughter of Saul had no child to the day of her death.

January 16th, 2007, 09:47 PM	#41 (permalink)
BoB/335 Tele-Meister Join Date: Aug 2003 Location: Long Island Posts: 474	REVIEWS “For American music fans, it’s a find like a scientist’s discovery of a new species. The steel guitar is central to country music. But no one outside Southern Pentecostal House of God churches had heard of black gospel steel. Robert Stone a Florida folklorist, stumbled onto the haunting sound when a music-store owner told him about a steady stream of African-American customers for steel-guitar supplies. With an NEA grant, Stone made the first ever compilation tape of five gospel steel masters playing at services and revivals. ‘Sacred Steel’ was an instant hit.” (Peter Katel — Newsweek) “Every weekend some of the most astounding slide players in the world perform at the small Keith and Jewel Dominion churches that are part of the Holiness-Pentecostal movement . . . Sonny Treadway, with his godly accurate left hand and bittersweet tones, swings on a homemade 8-string. Shades of Earl Hooker, Glenn Lee’s ‘Call Him By His Name’ is a bluesy masterpiece on an E9-tuned pedal steel with plenty of volume pedal . . . Aubrey Ghent jumps into the modern era with fancy chicken picking and shivery theremin-like solos. His massive-toned, tear it up version of ‘Praise Music’ is wild beyond description . . . ” (Jas Obrecht — Guitar Player) __________________ BoB/335

January 17th, 2007, 09:41 AM	#43 (permalink)
BoB/335 Tele-Meister Join Date: Aug 2003 Location: Long Island Posts: 474	Remember that I said I don't have a problem with guitar solos. With that said I do have a problem with the following quotes: "“Every weekend some of the most astounding slide players in the world perform at the small Keith and Jewel Dominion churches" "Aubrey Ghent jumps into the modern era with fancy chicken picking and shivery theremin-like solos. His massive-toned, tear it up version of ‘Praise Music’ is wild beyond description . . ." If these are concerts for Christian entertainment then I don't have a problem. If this is Sunday corporate, community worship the IMHO I think this is way out of line. If the gospel needs to be sold by big headliners then I don't know what to say. __________________ BoB/335

January 17th, 2007, 05:30 PM	#46 (permalink)
BoB/335 Tele-Meister Join Date: Aug 2003 Location: Long Island Posts: 474	John, You are right in one sense. I usually try not to give an opinion without more facts so I apologize about Mr. Ghent. But with that statement following “Every weekend some of the most astounding slide players in the world perform at the small Keith and Jewel Dominion churches" it's hard not to come to a conclusion. Also I never said that famous people can't be holy or used by God. I did not move the topic in this directio. A comment was made so I tried to find some info and it sounds like a sales pitch to me. Ptrallan01 Thanks for you story. It only proves the fact that it is the heart of the people that WORSHIP our God and doesn't have much to do with the skill or level of professionalism in a true worship experience. (I think I just mixed threads) __________________ BoB/335

January 17th, 2007, 06:40 PM	#47 (permalink)
Refret TDPRI Member Join Date: May 2006 Location: Mountain View, CA Posts: 71	There is no way for us humans to judge what is in someones heart at a given moment. We need to be thankful for whatever they are willing to bring to the table. Even if we have the best intentions we all have bad days where the heart is not where it should be. Musically, worship is dealing with the same issues all music deals with. A solo is inappropiate if it is not evocative. It needs to reinforce the message of the song or provide a brief respite to allow the words to be digested. A well executed and properly placed solo will bring emphasis and meaning to the words that follow. If it doesn't reinforce the song it is always inappropriate regardless of setting. __________________ "If you gotta explain it, it ain't got it." Louie Armstrong

January 19th, 2007, 05:35 PM	#54 (permalink)
ravindave_3600 Tele-Holic Join Date: Apr 2004 Location: Boise, USA Posts: 898	JS Bach had no problem with instrumental solos in worship, and neither do I. Here's how I evaluate my own tendency toward "OhHeyI'mGonnaTakeARideNow!"ness: 1) Does the solo serve the music or the musician? If it adds to the musical experience and helps the congregation relate to the theme of the song, it's good. 2) Does it glorify God, or the guitarist? Even if it fits the song, if my heart's not right I shouldn't be playing it. I was embarrassed a few months ago when I played at a special event and the other musicians kept urging me to cut loose. I did, and they were impressed, but afterwards I realized I had done it to please them and to show what I could do. I had to apologize, even if THEY didn't understand why. 3) Does it bless the congregation? I play regularly at two churches; one is oriented more toward the words and doesn't care too much about the music, and I don't rock out with them (anymore than I'd play a Bach organ solo [as if I could]). The other church loves the words, but loves the music, too, and we'll let the pianist, the guitarist, even the bass player celebrate Jesus with a lead line for awhile. Since that helps the congregation's experience, it's good. If we're mindful of the Lord and the people we're serving as we play, our playing is sanctified. __________________ Want my guitar to sound like BBQ tastes! check out the band at http://www.brightredtie.com

January 17th, 2007, 09:06 AM	#42 (permalink)
teleman53 Tele-Meister Join Date: Aug 2004 Posts: 321	I agree that you should look at the audience. If there's alot of young people there solo's are probably a good thing. If there's older people go acoustic. I think one of the shocking things that started this topic was my manager is only 23. So age is not always a perfect indicator.

January 17th, 2007, 01:24 PM	#45 (permalink)
JohnSS Tele-Meister Join Date: Dec 2006 Location: NYC Posts: 205	Rev. Aubrey Ghent is the pastor of his church, not a visiting headliner. He's there every week, and if you see how the congregation responds you'll havea better idea of what I'm talking about. This debate really does sound like it contains a communication/reference gap. Until you actually can see and hear what I'm referring to this sounds very much like the proverbial 4 blind men each trying to describe an elephant.

January 18th, 2007, 10:56 PM	#50 (permalink)
sax4blues Tele-Holic Join Date: Apr 2006 Location: San Jose, CA Age: 51 Posts: 503	I like "solos" when it is musically appropriate for the context of the song. For me this means a 4+/- bar melodic interlude, kind of a contemplative breathing space. I also include intro/outro as solo space, again very melodic in relation to the vocal melody. What I have difficultly listening to is constant noodling within vocal lines. I have played with "lead" players in church that feel their sole mission is to fill every little space with some kind of "lick", which to me is just random noodling. Let the vocal message stand on it's own, then provide some flow and connection in the turn-arounds.

January 19th, 2007, 09:41 PM	#56 (permalink)
JohnSS Tele-Meister Join Date: Dec 2006 Location: NYC Posts: 205	daddyopapa & raveindave_3600: thank you for helping me to articulate the position that I share with you. I was getting frustrated that the other posters weren't understanding me due to lack of familiarity with "Sacred Steel" and similar gospel music type traditions, which were the source of my point.

January 20th, 2007, 04:12 AM	#57 (permalink)
BoB/335 Tele-Meister Join Date: Aug 2003 Location: Long Island Posts: 474	Well I'm not sure that I'm being understood either. I state again that I have no problem with guitar solos. I have problems with any kind of "sales pitch" that MAY be used to attrack people to a church. And I'm not saying that that is what is happening with Sacred Steel because I don't know enough about that movement. It was a point I made and tried to clarify. __________________ BoB/335

January 20th, 2007, 09:46 AM	#58 (permalink)
broadcaster Tele-Holic Join Date: Oct 2003 Location: Midwest Age: 50 Posts: 514 1 Photos	Churches with ministry that "holds back" for whatever reason, are definitely becoming more and more IRRELEVANT in today's world. We are all constantly bombarded with entertainment living in todays digital age. To reach the masses - young (& many old) with the NEVER changing Gospel requires ministry to be real and exciting (did someone say joyful?), not legalistic, prideful, religious dogma. After all, the Gospel IS exciting! Hearts need to be changed toward a sincere, joyful relationship with our Lord, not conformed to boring stale religion. Because that jive ain't gonna cut the mustard anymore. Plain truth folks. ;^ ) I'm sure King David's musicians did not have the "I better not play to my utmost because I do not want someone to approach me later and give me a compliment on my performance" attitude-spirit. No, the Bilble says the outsiders where amazed at the way they worshipped. David and his team would probably be thrown out of some churches today for being too radical and way out there, so to speak. All I can say is wait till heaven, no holds barred there for the King! The buildings will shake. Please read psalms 33, 100 and 150 and you will see why church should be the MOST excting place to be at!!! Yes and Amen...

January 22nd, 2007, 09:43 AM	#63 (permalink)
daddyopapa Tele-Meister Join Date: Sep 2005 Location: BC Canada Posts: 498	2 Samuel chapter 6 16: As the ark of the LORD came into the city of David, Michal the daughter of Saul looked out of the window, and saw King David leaping and dancing before the LORD; and she despised him in her heart. 20: And David returned to bless his household. But Michal the daughter of Saul came out to meet David, and said, "How the king of Israel honored himself today, uncovering himself today before the eyes of his servants' maids, as one of the vulgar fellows shamelessly uncovers himself!" 21: And David said to Michal, "It was before the LORD, who chose me above your father, and above all his house, to appoint me as prince over Israel, the people of the LORD -- and I will make merry before the LORD. 22: I will make myself yet more contemptible than this, and I will be abased in your eyes; but by the maids of whom you have spoken, by them I shall be held in honor." 23: And Michal the daughter of Saul had no child to the day of her death. __________________ Don't let them steal your joy.