Should church players be paid?

[endzone]

Originally Posted by klasaine

So here's a question for you all ... What do you think about non-christians (not necessarily non-believers though) that play in worship bands and get paid decently? I play in two different church bands maybe two sundays a month - love it because the bands and players are great - but music is exclusively how I make a living so I have to be paid. For the record, I'm Jewish. I'm hired expressly because I read music fairly well and don't have to rehearse except for an hour before the service.

First, I'm not sure what you mean by "non-christians (not necessarily non-believers though)". What's your definition of a "believer"? Just asking, not wanting a debate.

I'm not promising that this is going to be verbally eloquent so please forgive me if I say something that doesn't sound just right. It's difficult for me to type on a subject such as this. I'd much rather being speaking.

To answer your question, my first initial response is that I don't think it's appropriate for a "known" non-christian to be involved in any role of leading worship in a christian service. The worship service should be very special and sacred to a body of believers. It also should be prayed over by the leaders in expectation that the Holy Spirit will be present and move in people's lives with people's hearts and lives changed and souls being saved..being born again. I'm not sure that a non-believer could be a part of that in any way any more than having a "non-believing preacher" in the pulpit. With that said, I also know that God could and would use that situation to speak to a non-believer and call him into the kingdom. I hope that you play long enough to listen to the Holy Spirit's calling and give your life and heart to Jesus. If that happens, I am totally supportive of a non-christian playing in a worship band. I wouldn't care how much you were paid.

[Wound3rd]

I stumbled across this forum tonight and as a Sunday Morning Player I thought I'd drop in and say hello so, "Hello!" This is a topic I've often pondered. I don't think there's any right or wrong answer. I think many musicians tend to be willing to do whatever it takes for an opportunity to play, especially if they are Christian musicians and want to use what God has given them. The hardest thing is to say "no." Currently I'm playing bass in the contemporary service at my 6000 member church. We do 2 services, the regular worship is 3 services. We have to set up the gym for the contemporary service so I'm up at 4 to be there at 6 to help set up, do a full rehearsal and 2 services, then turn it all back into the school gym again. I leave around 1 or 1:30. When I was the drummer in the regular service I was there for rhythm section rehearsal at 7:30 and then 3 services, leaving around 12;15 or 12:30. Many times I'd have to come back at 4:30 to play the evening service. Right now I do the contemporary service and starting up again in January I'll drive 40 minutes after I get off work at 7 to play bass in a praise band in a neighboring city. I'm also slated to be the Praise Band drummer on Sunday nights. That's 3 rehearsals a week and all day Sunday. I'm pretty sure I'm going to beg off from the Sunday night gig and one rehearsal a week.

The funny thing is, in a church as large as ours we have very few rhythm section players, at least players who are willing to commit. I understand that in the regular service because the music has increasingly gone backward since we started a separate contemporary service. Guys aren't willing to commit that amount of time to come in and play rim shot, rim shot, rim shot, big fill and out on every song. We get a few more bodies in the gym but the amount of time soon leads people to say they're "burned out." I fully understand. At my age, I'm playing while the sun is still shining. You just have to be willing to say "no" if necessary. The services will go on. God will provide a lamb or He will help things go on without a full compliment of players. He doesn't need us so much as we need Him. Right now we can't find subs and we say God will provide someone. So far He hasn't and I can only surmise that we are in a "learning" mode right now.

The point was made earlier that if you pay one, where does it stop? Yes, I think I'm as worthy of pay as the pianist but I likely won't be paid. It's my choice then to play or not. I choose to play. If it gets to be too much I'm under no obligation to stay on. We have a full orchestra and the amount of money to pay all those folks would be astronomical. However, it's the rhythm section that gets used and used up the most. We're the ones who come in for the early rehearsals and the only ones to have to come back to merely play the benediction. If you're in the choir or orchestra you can come and go as you please unless you happen to have a solo that week. It's the rhythm section that has to be there constantly. In light of that fact, yes I think those few players are in a bit of a different category. I'm sure many more choir and orchestra members would balk at having to put in the time we put in. Again, we'll likely never be paid. That's fine.

To go back to the original question, no I shouldn't "expect" to be paid. However, on those occasions when I have been offered something for my efforts, I have gladly accepted it. I've often joked at church that I'm going to go join another church and then come back as a hired hand since we do pay outsiders who come in to play (and those people so far as I know are Christians who are members of other churches).

On that note, to answer the post by klasaine, no, I honestly don't agree with non-Christians being in the church band. The musicians are there to lead in worship and with all due respect, one cannot lead others to where he has never been himself. I don't mean any offense in that, just a statement of my own particular belief and that's a problem of the church doing the hiring and their mindset as opposed to the one accepting the gig. It's another job for the musician in that instance but the church has a higher responsibility. My hope and prayer would be that, once found in that situation the musician might be affected in a positive way but before the fact, that should not be the aim of the church (i.e. we'll bring in non-Christians to play and hope they get saved in the process).

I've enjoyed what I've seen here so far. I'm looking forward to exploring the forum a little more. Happy New Year to all!

[Rick Towne]

I can have a great time at TDPRI or CWF jams, but couldn't do worship with a non-believer in the group. The horizontal and vertical relationships are not right. I've had enough unpleasant experiences with believers with unedifying attitudes that I'm very careful with whom I will play. I'd rather turn down an otherwise attractive opportunity than go through another painful non-worship experience.

[klasaine]

Endzone - "non" believer; well in my case I'm Jewish so i do believe in G-d (we're not allowed to write or say his name) but there's that pesky Jesus issue ;). Of course that's a debate better suited to "in person" discussion. The first time I was approached by a worship leader - someone I had previously worked with in a secular musical situation - I told them straight away that I am not a Christian. Their reply was that "they know me and thought I was a person of integrity, that I would add to the band and the music and hence ... the service. And the lord smiled on you and gave you a talent". I still think it's a little bizarre that two, well actually three worship leaders hire me knowing full well I'm not "one of them". They really don't seem to mind. They may possibly think they're going to save me - I don't know. I'm just glad they have me play because the music is good, most of the players at these churchs are "A" list cats, and I really dig the groove. Again, I'm not trying to "start something" here. I'm truly interested and curious. And thank you for your honest and thoughtful responses. No offense taken at anything. peace, - KL

[endzone]

"that pesky Jesus issue" LOL.

Hey klasaine, as long as you were honest and they still wanted you, then go for it. I guarantee that if you're into the music, then you are praising God and He will honor that.

[jeffhef]

Originally Posted by klasaine

Endzone - "non" believer; well in my case I'm Jewish so i do believe in G-d (we're not allowed to write or say his name) but there's that pesky Jesus issue ;). Of course that's a debate better suited to "in person" discussion.

How do YOU feel about leading worship at a Christian church? As for me...I don't have a problem with a Jewish musician playing with the Praise Band. But I CAN understand why some would not think it appropriate.

However, I would think you would be uncomfortable participating in a religious worship service that contradicts your faith. I don't think I could play in a worship service where the doctrine was contrary to my faith. Not trying to give you a hard time...just curious.

jeffhef

[franchelB]

Originally Posted by klasaine

So here's a question for you all ... What do you think about non-christians (not necessarily non-believers though) that play in worship bands and get paid decently? I play in two different church bands maybe two sundays a month - love it because the bands and players are great - but music is exclusively how I make a living so I have to be paid. For the record, I'm Jewish. I'm hired expressly because I read music fairly well and don't have to rehearse except for an hour before the service.

I'm just commenting on your comment. Personally, I'd have a problem with non-christians being in a worship band (where most songs ARE about Jesus); let alone get paid for it. I'd have a problem with churches going outside their denominations to hire musicians. There are plenty of musicians in their own church. "Bloom where you are planted", to quote Scripture. Furthermore, there are other musicians that I personally know that can read music as well as anyone out there AND is a "believer". Many of them play music out of the goodness of their heart.
I also have issues with ANYONE who claims to not "rehearse except for an hour before the service". I don't care WHO you are, you CANNOT "bring your best" before God when you rehearse 1 hour prior to service. Pro secular musicians rehearse before every show they're scheduled to play. Church, in my opinion, should be more than that. Then it goes back to whether we (musicians) are giving a concert performance or are we enhancing worship?
And for the record, I do play in secular bands, where I expect to get paid, AND I play in a Church band, where I expect to NOT get paid.

[klasaine]

Jeffhef - I can completely understand where one could have a problem with a non-christian participating in a praise service. That's why I'm always up front about my affilliation. Also, I'm not the "leader" just the guitar player.

FranchelB - I mean no disresoect about the rehearsal thing. The worship leader(s) have "dead-on" charts for the band and don't want or need to rehearse for more than an hour before the service. Most of the tunes the band has played more than once already and we know them. As to the ability of church member players - I'm sure they're there but for one reason or another, don't participate (?). So they have to hire players if they want music. With a good chart I can absolutely "cut it" with an hour rehearsal and give it my all - which I always do no matter what kind of music it is or who is or isn't paying me. If I say I'm gonna play ... I'm gonna "play". Again, thanks for the straightforward responses. This is truly enlightening and intersesting for me. - KL

[popthree]

this is exactly the kind of stuff that having a fancy schmancy performance group doing church worship music invites. but the 'masses' who pay their 'tithes' are paying to be entertained, so what is the corporation going to do?

Klasaine, i know my above comment sounds cynical and harsh..and it is, but not directed at you, i'm directing my comments to the fancy pants christian churches building their huge empires.

personally, i have no problem with a hired gun doing what you are doing. good for you, make money doing what you enjoy.

what i have a problem with is churches who have lost sight of what is important. and ultra slick toe tapping entertainment is just about as necessary in a church as teets on a boar.

[klasaine]

Hey Popthree, no offense taken. I basically agree with you.

From an 'outsiders' perspective ... maybe they feel that as long they get souls in the seats - however it needs to be done, music, show, pageantry, etc. - that there's a few more potential souls "saved". (?)

For me one could say that yeah, it's just a gig ... but it's a really good gig and I like it.

[jeffhef]

Originally Posted by klasaine

Jeffhef - I can completely understand where one could have a problem with a non-christian participating in a praise service. That's why I'm always up front about my affilliation. Also, I'm not the "leader" just the guitar player.

I don't have a problem with a Jewish musician in a Christian P&W Band. My reference to "Leading" is because I've gotten used to referencing all members of the Praise Team as "Leading Worship". It's something I picked up from something I read I think. Sorry for the confusion.

I know Praise teams that have used Secular musicians who profess NO FAITH. I'm not sure how I feel about it but I DO know that in at least one case one of the musicians became a Christian AFTER playing regularly in the P&W band. So I suppose it could be a positive thing.

Then again...I think there's more to P&W music than the fact that it's just good music. I think the quality has dramatically increased in the past 5 or 6 years and it makes it more fun to play as a musician.

Not sure where I'm going with this...

How bout this...

If you play Christian P&W you're more than a musician. Yes...I think excellence should be expected. But if you're not going to do your best for the Creator of all things then who will you do your best for? That being said...even if you're not the best guitar player or drummer or whatever...as long as you're doing the best you're capable of doing then that's good enough. I think you'll be given the portion necessary to accomplish God's plan if it has His blessing and is pleasing to Him.

And maybe I've answered my own question that started this thread.

I think it's a little tough to expect to ONLY use money from the church to pay Christians for services. I don't necessarily think this is what was meant by "FranchelB" and don't want to assume incorrectly. However, I have heard this type of thing before and it's common in other religions or sects. If I have a choice to financially support a brother in the faith or someone outside the faith then will I choose the Christian? Most likely - yes. Not because I don't want my money to go to non-Christian's. But if I know the product or service is identical and the price is comparable I'm going to invest in my brother.

Also, I DO agree with using musicians who are members of the church. In a church that's 500 or more there are most likely lots of people who "could" serve as musicians in the P&W band. The question is...WILL they serve? In the 3 churches I've served it's been my experience that more will not commit to playing on a regular basis. I think there are some things the church and music ministry could do to make it easier to serve. I'll go back to something I mentioned earlier - provide the essential tools. I know we supply keyboards, PA, and drums. But we don't supply the things needed by other musicians. For example - Amps, effects (if you want your musicians to use them), supplies (strings, picks, etc).

If a guitar player simply has to walk in and plug in it definitely makes things a lot easier. I can't tell you how many times I've spent an additional 30 minutes before and after setting up or wrapping up my rig when the Drummer. keyboard player and singers simply walk in and walk out. I'd be lying if I said it doesn't get old. However, if I decide to not bring my pedalboard and the Worship Leader wants a little delay or tremolo then what am I to do.

To be honest...it would make sense to supply the rig since it would allow the sound to be better controlled and consistent. Guess guitar and bassists are still considered red headed step children.

My one question to klasaine remains...how do YOU feel about playing in a Christian Praise and Worship band? Do you feel there is a conflict? How does your family feel about it? Don't have to answer any of that. I'm just curious. As I said...I have NO PROBLEM with you playing. I would just think you would have some discomfort faith or family based.

jeffhef

[jeffhef]

Originally Posted by popthree

this is exactly the kind of stuff that having a fancy schmancy performance group doing church worship music invites. but the 'masses' who pay their 'tithes' are paying to be entertained, so what is the corporation going to do?

Klasaine, i know my above comment sounds cynical and harsh..and it is, but not directed at you, i'm directing my comments to the fancy pants christian churches building their huge empires.

personally, i have no problem with a hired gun doing what you are doing. good for you, make money doing what you enjoy.

what i have a problem with is churches who have lost sight of what is important. and ultra slick toe tapping entertainment is just about as necessary in a church as teets on a boar.

This is something I'm sure a lot of Sunday players hear a lot. As for you in your walk I can see where you're coming from. You're mature in your faith and don't need the window dressing. You want the meat and potatos. Please correct me if I'm stating something incorrectly. I'm making assumptions without knowing you and don't mean to offend.

I think the churches like mine DO serve a purpose. For years I attended a traditional Lutheran church. I was comfortable with the liturgy and ceremony. I LIKED it and still do. I think a traditional Lutheran service is beautiful. However, my son's had no interest. This church is where I started playing P&W. Our church started a contemporary service and my kids preferred it to the traditional. I always felt we should attend as a family but one day looked around and my whole family had left me in the traditional service and gone to the Celebration Service. I started attending with them. At first i didn't like it. It actually felt too contemporary to me and not "churchy" enough. Gradually I began to see that it was just an alternate form of worship. The good thing was...my kids actually WANTED to go.

One thing led to another...the Worship Leader found out I play guitar and the next thing I know I'm playing in the worship band.

I can understand people not believing contemporary worship is valid or that it's too commercial. But consider this...worship didn't start out being about wearing a suit and singing hymn's written 100 years ago. Why should there be ANY worship service that's invalid. As long as the message is solid.

I agree...I have a problem with churches that have lost sight of what's important. But I know this...my kids look forward to church now. Not just the slick performance. It's the message as well. They're reading their bibles and learning about Jesus. That's not something I can say was happening before. The toe tapping got them in the church...but the message has kept their butt's in the seats when the music faded.

jeffhef

[popthree]

my kids look forward to church as well, but it has nothing to do with the music, quite the opposite is true in fact.

[jeffhef]

Originally Posted by popthree

my kids look forward to church as well, but it has nothing to do with the music, quite the opposite is true in fact.

And that works for you and your kids. Great!!

jeffhef

[klasaine]

Hey jeffhef. I have no spritual issue playing in church. Either does my family. If one of my grandmothers were still around she'd probably raise an eyebrow at me. From what I've seen and experienced most worship focuses on the same good things regardless of affilliation or denomination. I'm being paid by people who appreciate what I do, the work I've put in to doing well, the fact that they think I do it well, and that they think it helps their mission. Is it true or not? I don't know - and it's not for me to decide.

[jeffhef]

Originally Posted by klasaine

Hey jeffhef. I have no spritual issue playing in church. Either does my family. If one of my grandmothers were still around she'd probably raise an eyebrow at me. From what I've seen and experienced most worship focuses on the same good things regardless of affilliation or denomination. I'm being paid by people who appreciate what I do, the work I've put in to doing well, the fact that they think I do it well, and that they think it helps their mission. Is it true or not? I don't know - and it's not for me to decide.

Cool! Play on.

jeffhef

[Rick Towne]

"I also have issues with ANYONE who claims to not "rehearse except for an hour before the service". I don't care WHO you are, you CANNOT "bring your best" before God when you rehearse 1 hour prior to service. Pro secular musicians rehearse before every show they're scheduled to play. Church, in my opinion, should be more than that. Then it goes back to whether we (musicians) are giving a concert performance or are we enhancing worship?"

I disagree. Our "best" does not come from a lengthy rehearsal. Unity does not come from this kind of rehearsal. If I'm asked to do a new song, I'll get a chord chart before- hand, find a recording, learn the song and do my own arrangement based on my knowledge of the group and our capabilities, and what instrument and tone/effects I would like to use; i.e. Bender-Tele, 12 string, octave 12, etc. Doing "by the record" arrangements are not particularly important to the people/groups I'm with, as we like to do our own, i.e. start with the chorus, or the outro, do many repeats, vocal improvisations, and so on. We are there to lead (in a musical sense) the congregation, and if we're doing something that they can't relate to (and you can see people just sitting or standing and watching the players, i.e. not "entering in" as the expression goes) then we are not fulfilling our roles. For us, "rehearsal" means getting together and set up and getting in the right spirit, that is, putting the day or week's events behind us and "pre-worshipping", but not learning songs note for note, or learning actual transcriptions note by note. [Warning...I do not like Tommy Walker songs because I think they are written in an unecessarily complicated manner] Reviewing transcriptions is useful if there are particular instrumental hooks, or rhythmic quirks, i.e. Chris Tomlin's "Famous One", but that's all. I understand that this approach requires experienced and secure players who are comfortable with surprises or following the leader where the song goes and the Spirit leads, but it's doable. The real "rehearsal" comes beforehand, learning a new song, planning, to some degree, the recorded/written parts to be played, or discarded, or changed from the last time, as it were, to suit the occasion.

[JohnSS]

At our church, C3 Manhattan, we're blessed in that we have a number of talented songwriters, so we often have liturgies where the majority of the music is original. As a result, we often do not rehearse, because the arrangements are "open" depending upon whom the personnel are (we have revolving worship teams and both AM and PM services) and the individual styles of the players. For example, if the worship leader for the particular service is more of a gospel/R&B vocalist, and the bassist is of a prog rock background and I'm playing lead guitar, the arrangement will be different than if the singer/worship leader is a pop/rock stylist, the bassist is into electronica and I'm playing organ. So, I understand where all of you are coming from re. rehearsal, but my own situation kind of follows Rick's comments.

[Rathmann]

Well, this is one of the best online discussion threads I have seen in a long time! A cool, thoughtful question and responses slung from all directions!

I am a Quaker, and therefore do not believe that anyone should be paid to undertake the ministry of the Lord. I was once married to a paid minister, and after that experience my opinion on this matter is stronger than ever. Christ said "freely ye have received, now freely ye shall give." The disciples in encountering Simon the Magician balked when has offered to pay him for the knowledge of laying on hands. One can not serve two masters! From the Old Testament prophets to Christ, it becomes apparent that few people are willing to pay to hear the truth -- but as we all know people will gladly pay to be flattered, entertained and distracted!

That being said, I think the church needs to determine whether their music is part of its ministry or whether it is completely secular. If it is an offering to God by the musicians in question, there should be no worldly compensation. If, on the other hand, the music is for the purpose of entertainment and distraction -- one has to wonder what it is doing in the church!

I fully expect to get flame-broiled by a few people on this score -- so hammer away, man.

[franchelB]

Originally Posted by JohnSS

At our church, C3 Manhattan, we're blessed in that we have a number of talented songwriters, so we often have liturgies where the majority of the music is original. As a result, we often do not rehearse, because the arrangements are "open" depending upon whom the personnel are (we have revolving worship teams and both AM and PM services) and the individual styles of the players. For example, if the worship leader for the particular service is more of a gospel/R&B vocalist, and the bassist is of a prog rock background and I'm playing lead guitar, the arrangement will be different than if the singer/worship leader is a pop/rock stylist, the bassist is into electronica and I'm playing organ. So, I understand where all of you are coming from re. rehearsal, but my own situation kind of follows Rick's comments.

To me, this speaks to me as a performance, if I understand it correctly...and I don't want to single anyone in this situation. In fact, I can honestly understand it. Without sounding conceited, I can fill in for guitar, keyboards, bass, or drums at any service...but I don't do it. I've played most of our songs many times since 1987, that I can also say that I don't need to rehearse. BUT in my mind, all of this stuff starts to focus about me. And, it's not about ME!
That's all I'm sayin'.