Should church musicians be paid??

[GuitarSmith]

I am wondering if you guys think church musicians who play regularly and commit a significant portion of time each week to the worship team should be paid?

Some questions to consider for discussion/thought:

1. Does the regular church pianist/organist get paid? Why or why not?

2. Why should a pastor be paid? Why should a secretary, janitor, etc. be paid? Why should/shouldn't a children's Sunday School teacher be paid?

3. Are there Biblical principles to guide our thoughts? What has the church done historically?

I ask this question because as the church uses contemporary praise music, the demand for highly skilled musicians is increasing. Some worship teams prepare 8 to 10 songs per week, spending a total of 8 to 10 hours in rehearsal, preparation, maintenance of equipment, etc. Should this be a "freebie" done "for the Lord"?

For example, should a church use a decent/just OK guitarist who plays for free (for Jesus) or should it pursue a better qualified, semi-pro or pro guitarst who should be compensated (and who will greatly enhance the quality of the music). Let's face it, shoddy music done by sincere people is still shoddy. The Psalms call for "skilled" musicians/vocalists. Any thoughts?

[Brad]

I don't know about others, but I gladly give my time each week to have the honer of being able to worship my Father. Again, I consider it an honer! We have 12 to 14 members in our worship team. Most of them put in a lot more time each week than I do and no one gets ( or expects ) to be paid. Of course, we are fairly small...maybe 200 to 250 and it may different in a big church..but still, I would not expect to get paid. The pastor..of course he should be paid. THis is his job. The tithes and offereings are his only means of support. I only wish we were able to support him better. He does not make enough compared to what he puts out. Again, I feel blessed to be able to contribute in such a small way.

[Matt Plescher]

my church supplies batteries, and has talked about supplying strings. I don't need to be paid though. It would seem like work then.

Matt

[PraiseCaster]

I personally am totally humbled, and blessed, that God chose me, the least of the brethren, to offer up this magnificent sacrifice of Praise to Him!

God GAVE me a gift of music, and I gladly, and with a joyful heart, offer it up as a Sacrifice of Praise and Worship to him. That, and the Joy that I get out of it EVERY SINGLE TIME I PLAY FOR HIM, is such a bountiful harvest in itself, I couldnt imagine getting paid for what I do. For example, last night it was so blazzingly hot inside the Sanctuary, I was absolutely soaked in sweat from the heat! It was just pouring off my body like a water fall! But it was such a bold time of Worship, it just didnt matter. It was one of the best times of Prasie and Worship that I think we've ever had!

Now, I feel, and it is just 'my humble opinion', I think that the Worship Leaders should be a part time employee of the Church. Why? The Worship Leader spends probably twice the time that we put into it. He also acts as an under-Shepherd, or Pastor's assistant: a lot of times, my Worship leader helps councel those in the Worship Team (I know first hand!), organizes the music, the practice, and helps to keep us all motivated and Joyful! I'm really blessed to have such a great Worship Leader, and he is becoming one of my best friends too!

So, when I add it all up, I'm already overpaid as it is! thank God the IRS hasnt figured out how to tax the Joy that we recieve from it!

[JDO]

i get the whole idea of figuring that it's feasible for ministry to be "free" but there were paid workers in the bible. paul wrote,

The elders who direct the affairs of the church well are worthy of double honor, especially those whose work is preaching and teaching. For the Scripture says, "Do not muzzle the ox while it is treading out the grain," and "The worker deserves his wages." I Timothy 5:17-18

i think this is pretty clear about paying ministers of various sorts. paul also talks many times about people supporting him financially. yes he was a tent maker, but he had support from churches just as missionaries today to so they don't have to focus on making enough to eat and can focus on their ministry.

the question then comes, where do musicians fit into this?

well, they didn't have church praise bands in paul’s day (that i know of). they also didn't have youth ministers or adolescence for that matter - so that could be another issue. but i believe in essentials, unity; in non-essentials, liberty; and in all things, love. and this is definitely not an essential (good discussion but not pertinent to salvation).

personal opinion - i personally don't care if a musician is paid. if a church is big enough, has the income, they see it as enough of a need in their particular ministry to have "top quality" music and therefore needing the musicians to focus a certain amount of time on it - then that's there prerogative.

good question. thanks for asking it. it started my wheels turning, and who knows, maybe tomorrow i'll have a different opinion. we'll see.

[GuitarSmith]

We can see that a number of you find that the joy and blessing of ministering to others and serving God is enough "compensation." I suppose any ministry function which demanded a significant amount of time (regularly), such as pastor, musician, secretary, etc. could be done "for the Lord" (unpaid) -- a professional painter might do some painting work free of charge for his church as an offering to the Lord. (He could also charge them as well -- it's his vocation or part-time job). As mentioned above, the Bible promotes paying people for work and condemns not paying (James 5).

Paul the Apostle mentioned to the Corinthians that he had the "right" to be paid but was willing to forgoe that privilege ("liberty") in order not to hinder the spread of the Gospel (1 Cor. 8 ff) -- there were plenty of huckster public speakers (rhetoricians) and philosophers taking advantage of the common folks in Paul's day and he decided not to provide any opportunity to be lumped in with those guys... Maybe some church leaders should do the same??

My point: It's fine not to be paid for ministry work if one is willing to exercise his liberty and forgoe his right to be paid (for whatever reason).

[DADGAD]

.

[Wahwax]

I think it comes down to the size of the congregation.

The larger the church, the more of a demand there will be on the staff.

A pastor may be willing to lead a small congregation for no pay and keep down a full time job to provide for his family. However the larger the congregation grows, the more time that it will take to tend to their needs. So the pastoring becomes more of a fulltime job.

The same goes for the rest of the staff. Office help, music director, musicians, teachers, video and sound staff. If they can do their jobs with a couple hours a week invested they will usually gladly donate their time. However as the congregation grows, more is asked of these members too. The office help will have more bills to pay, more bulletins to print, more calls to answer. The teacher will be expected to present a more formal lesson and more time is required to prepare. The musician will be expected to present a more professional song service and more practice would be required.

As each of these positions moves from a couple hours a week into a part time or fulltime job, I don't see any reason these people shouldn't be paid to compensate them for their time.

[Brad]

I would guess it depends on how much time your putting in. Our worship leader does put in more time than the rest and I don't know if she's paid or not.....but if she is, I would have no problem with that. I put in about 10 hours a week, pay for my own equipment, strings, ect., and help others out with their instruments. I just feel blessed to be in a position to do this because it has not always been the case. People have been there for me when I needed help and I am only very happy to be able to give back. It's like planting a seed...it sprouts, continues to grow and take off in a direction of it's own. Case in point,
( this is a bit off the subject, sorry ) I purchsed an electric gutiar for a young boy at church who I have been giving lessons to. His dad plays ( beautiful ) keyboards, sings and shares in leading worship at our church with his wife who sings. They have a struggle financially with 3 kids, mortgage...etc. I bought a strat copy cheap, fixed it up for him. I mentioned it on this board and said I was trying to find him an amp. A TDPRI brother ( thanks again Wally! ) read the post and offered to send him an amplifier. How cool is that! Wally does not know me from Adam, ( except from the TDPRI ) but trusted enough to send an amp all the way from Texas to Tacoma. Lucas loves the gutiar and amp and his playing has improved ten fold as he now has a good instrument to learn on and he's so excited at having an electric and an amp that he practices more. I can't wait for the young un's to start their own worship team. I know they will not expect any money! It's cool cause about 8 of the youngsters are so excited about it and talk about it all the time. Again, off the subject, sorry!

[GuitarSmith]

JDO wrote:
"Do not muzzle the ox while it is treading out the grain," and "The worker deserves his wages." I Timothy 5:17-18


I use that verse on my wife whenever I'm thinking about a new piece of gear. Hehe....

That's great! I belly-chuckled out loud! I've been buying guitar gear like a "dumb ox" (Thomas Aquinas' nickname) this summer and unfortunately my "wages" from guitar work never balance the books!

It can be kinda fun (the Puritans did something akin to this) to use Bible verses in a silly way -- I like the first clause of Colossians 2:21 placed on the AC thermostat on a hot July night -- God says in His Word, "Do not touch..." Might be used when the kiddies put sticky Kool Aid fingers on your Strat's rosewood fingerboard!

[tom grossheider]

We have a full-time staff worship leader/pastor, as the "job" is indeed a full time committment. We have volunteers in the department to help administratively, and all of the musicians are volunteers. The band leader (and bass player) and choir director is also on staff as full time janitor / maintenance man at the church. His wife plays piano and keys also, and daughter plays sax and clarinet. However, for special Easter and Christmas musical events, we need extra musicians so we hire them to cover expenses for rehearsals, etc. Some just give the money back because they believe that it is their ministry. Personally, I agree with what has been said previously, for me it is where God has called me to share the gifts and passion for worship that He has given me. God forbid that I should ever think that this is just "another gig". If I ever start thinking that way I hope He moves me out. All things must be done with excellency, but also to bring along new musicians that have a desire to serve God in this capacity. I played with another church Wed evening and the bass player never did get the rhythm down on several tunes, but it all went well and I believe God was pleased with our efforts. Let it all be done for His glory.

[MLT]

The only thing I can say (as a semi-pro player who serves for free) is that every time I've obsessed about what someone else is getting paid, and whether or not that's fair... well, for me, it's always been an indication that my attitude ain't right. Again, that's speaking for me.

I have a day job. I'm profoundly grateful that it allows me to play music strictly for love. That goes for secular bands too. I get to pick my spots and turn down anything that doesn't feel right or satisfy in some deep way.

If the folks at church knew how much I dig playing for them, they could charge me to play and I'd probably pay up.

Be blessed!

[GuitarSmith]

I'm just curious...what do think I have concluded?

[RIFF WOLF]

all musicians should be paid! if one feels the Lord's blessing is enough he/she can give it back.

[MLT]

Originally Posted by GuitarSmith

I'm just curious...what do think I have concluded?

Well, the content of your posts seems to lean heavily toward the idea that musicians should be paid. I don't necessarily disagree. I think it is one of those things that is not inherently right or wrong across the board. It depends on the situation.

However, it does look to me as if you are propigating your own opinion more than asking for insight from others. That seems, err... "less than completely honest" to me. Apologies if I have misread the situation.

[GuitarSmith]

Well, the content of your posts seems to lean heavily toward the idea that musicians should be paid. I don't necessarily disagree. I think it is one of those things that is not inherently right or wrong across the board. It depends on the situation.

However, it does look to me as if you are propigating your own opinion more than asking for insight from others. That seems, err... "less than completely honest" to me. Apologies if I have misread the situation.

I guess that surprises me. I would have thought that you concluded that it was fine NOT to be paid based on what I had written. I'm not sure how it looks like I'm propagating my opinion more than asking for insight from others -- I thought there had been some good interaction and input -- no apology necessary, I guess I would prefer having an explicit opinion challenged, rather than what appears to be "reading between the (my) lines". At any rate, thanks, though, for your input.

[goofball]

I'm going to come down firmly on both sides of this issue.

If I'm playing in church, it's because I love to - I enjoy the worship, the fellowship and the music. Period. It's a priveledge, and an offering to God.

On the other hand sometimes your services and talent are requested for special things - events and services that are out of your way, that you have to make time for. Those should be (but almost never are in my experience) paid for.

If you factor in the amount of time put in to rehearsal and then the astronomical amount of time put in to learning an instrument, musicians' skills are exremely undervalued.

[RIFF WOLF]

If you factor in the amount of time put in to rehearsal and then the astronomical amount of time put in to learning an instrument, musicians' skills are exremely undervalued.

i agree

[leecow]

Time, sweat and talent spent rehearsing the worship band, leading worship and playing for other functions at my home church is all on a volunteer basis.

When invited to fill the guitar seat at other churches I graciously accept whatever token payment is offered and somewhat expect such an offer to be made.

[Jim W]

Our church has paid musicians and non paid musicians. The paid musicians are the organist for the tradition services and the music director (piano) for the Praise Team. The organist also works with the choir. These are part-time positions for both. Everyone else is a volunteer.

They play for the love of the Lord and playing, but don't have the responsibility to make sure that the service occurs. I don't think one would consider paying an individual that is a public school teacher to teach a Sunday school class.

The two muscians get paid inpart because they have to be there on Sunday (or make sure that there is a substitute)- it is their responsibility that the music part of the service takes place (the Pastor does the other stuff). Thus, these two individuals take care of scheduling, rehearsing and what ever (i.e., dealing with difficult people which often includes the Pastor) to make sure the service happens. Assuming that you don't have a full-time church musician(s), I think these responsibilities is the part that requires pay.

Our congregation is blessed with good musicians or at least musicians that play within their ability.

I do think that musicians should be paid for funerals and weddings. Playing requires practice which requires the expenditure of time.

IMHO

Jim

[broadcaster]

..

[PVTele]

IMHO (truly!) it comes down to a) the size of the church, and b) the degree of commitment required.

a) In our little church, where most of the congregation are on low incomes / retired / variously out-of-work, it can be hard enough to raise enough for our pastor's and part-time youth worker's salaries... If we worship bods were paid as well, the church would have absolutely no money for mission, outreach, mercy ministries... an impossible situation. But in a big church, with paid asst. pastors, office staff, prayer team, et al., it would be wrong not to pay the worship team.

b) In a situation where one person (band leader, choir director, organist...) shoulders the regular responsibility to make sure the music side of the Sunday meetings is there, choose and arrange music, teach and discipline other musicians / singers, and works regular hours at it, then they probably should, if at all possible, be paid. But in a church like ours, where the worship team decides between themselves (consulting with the pastor or whoever's teaching on any given Sunday) what to play, arranges it, and sorts out who's playing, sharing in the overall responsibility, then our reward is in the work itself.

I don't know of any other 'gig' that even remotely approaches leading worship in terms of reward. The Spirit himself is our leader and paymaster, and the currency in which we're paid! Any financial side to the issue is merely an acknowledgement that someone's work is sufficiently time-consuming to interfere with their 'ordinary' paid occupation.

[mjaames520]

We play at a small church and do it as part of our ministry. we never take money and furnish all of our gear. Through the years we have played "out" some and did take love offerings. This has allowed us to purchase some equipment as well as a 16 foot "equipment" Trailer. IN the last year or so our group has felt a burden to not leave the church and just stay where we are. It seemed like everytime we played away from the church there wasn't any music so I guess until God releases us we are here for awhile. The church is small and we wouldn't feel right taking any money. I guess we feel God "pays" us for our efforts. It may be just a car running longer between repairs or blessings in other ways but sometimes money is not the only way to be paid.
A few summers ago we played at some churches in Alabama and Georgia and have played some in New Mexico. We did take love offerings and God provided for all the expenses. Just follow your heart and God will show you what to do.
MJ
Highroad Gospel Ministries
San Angelo, Texas

[PraiseCaster]

Cause I just want to add one thought:

Now this should only apply to a Church that is self sufficient enough, to where it wont take away from Ministry, or Outreach needs. In other words, the Church is not struggling financially.

When David was King (and all subsequent Kings), He not only fed the Worship Musicians from his own table (meaning; they enjoyed the same exact food, that David did, which, for a King would be 5 Star Dining), but they and their family was housed at the King's Palace.

So in light of that background in the scriptures, If a Church has the funds available, they should offer to compensate the musicians. Now of course, the musician could always decide to just donate his time too the Church, if he so wishes.

So, I think it shouldnt be a burden to the Church financially, but, if the Church could afford it, I think they should at the very least offer. I mean, if King David thought it was that important........

[Wahwax]

Praise and Worship is a BIG part of our service. We get many compliments on it. Many people have stated that our praise and worship is what drew them to our church. It's not that we're that good, it's the style of music we play. Most churches around here don't have a full band (drums, electric guitar, bass, keys). Those that do have the instruments and musicians, don't take advantage of it. They continue to play watered down versions of the new contemporary stuff.

My point is this. Since our praise & worship is so important, we want to make it sound as professional as possible. If we were all getting paid I know we would make extra time to practice more. As is stands now there isn't that extra effort to practice. I'd love to practice more, paid or not, but it's hard to get everyone together. If our congregation was larger I think we would need to require more of a commitment from the musicians. For example, sometimes we are without a drummer. It's real hard to pull of some of the songs we do without drums. We do them, but they sound lame. If you start requiring that extra commitment I think you have to compensate them somehow. It may not have to be a big salary, but maybe a small payment for services rendered.

[guitarpicker_ma]

I have to say that I agree with most everyone who has already spoke up; it simply depends on the situation.

The church I attend is tiny (roughly 20 members), so myself and the keyboardist have basically bought all of the sound equipement out of our pockets. Our church just doesn't have the resources to fund equipment, let alone people.

Yet I believe that if a church has abundant resources, and people that are putting in a decent amount of time to the music ministry, especially dealing with administration and all, that they should be offered some nominal pay, even if it is turned down by the person to which it's being offered.

Jesse

[GuitarSmith]

Hey, I just wanted to say how much I have enjoyed the comments on this discussion I started back in July! I was glad to see it revived recently. Great comments!

[PVTele]

Like you, GuitarSmith, I'm quite fascinated by this thread...

This question of who supplies gear is a good one, and a different, though really related, issue than whether P&W musicians get paid as such.

As I said above, and as PraiseCaster pointed out far better than I could have said, '[payment] should only apply to a Church that is self sufficient enough, to where it wont take away from Ministry, or Outreach needs. In other words, the Church is not struggling financially.' But the issue of gear? That's interesting.

In our church we have a Carlsboro CPX600 300W+300W PA & speakers, Amptech Wedge active floor monitors, a Studiomaster Diamond 16-2 desk, and various mics, stands, tape machines, CD decks, DI boxes and such accessories. The church has bought all this kit, mainly through gifts rather than tithes (i.e. separate from day-to-day ministry money), but does not supply instruments. Each of us buys guitars, keyboards, drums or whatever (I've also a little recording amp I bought to run line out via a DI box into the desk) according to our own choice / depth of pocket.

Seems like the ideal arrangement - instruments are really personal things (TDPRI proves that ) but if someone was obviously gifted and called to lead worship but simply couldn't afford a decent instrument then the Lord would provide somehow... he has done in the past, with odd financial aid where necessary, again from individuals, without our having to dip into the ministry money.

And that's where you've nailed it, PraiseCaster... nothing, except core personnel salaries - in our church, Pastor and Youth Leader - should ever get in the way of ministry funds.

We're just coming to the end of a long struggle to buy, and then virtually rebuild, an old disused 19th century Anglican 'chapel of ease' (a small church at a distance from the Parish church so that guys could get to a service after morning milking etc., when they'd be to late to walk or ride to the main church). One of the hardest things was that from the outset we refused to nick the ministry money for the building fund, and so had to raise serious money from gifts, charities and so forth. But God will bless it, and will enable us to work in ways we never could before when we had to rent the village hall for everything, or use people's living rooms & gardens, just because we haven't used money he'd given us to preach the Gospel, help people in need, work with the young people, etc. etc.

[reverbbb]

I've been following this thread for a few weeks. I have avoided posting. I am torn between what is being selfish and what is realistic. I still have no solid answer, just a continued commitment. Let me explain:

Our church was started a few years ago in a commercial paint distribution warehouse. It was an aweful place to meet. The long story shortened - through a series of events and certainly Devine intervention, we merged our growing congregation with a faltering congregation that had a chuch building built in the 1950's. Its maximum capacity is about 350 people (which we are already at). The existing church had a debt that my church paid off. That meant that the church works as a debt free church.

This frees up funds for the Pastor, a full time evangelist, a part time secretary, and some youth worker salaries. Health Insurance premiums this year, has rocked our budget. Basically, there are no funds for assets, equipment or other duties.

Now, I have been a P&W member for about 4 years. When I joined, I volunteered my Roland TD-7 MIDI drumset for this ministry. I also provide all stage amplifiers, and very often loan my bass and guitars to other members to play, since they do not own their own equipment. I have so much of my personal equipment in use, that if I retracted my equipment, there would be no amplified or acoustical P&W, just acculpella singers (unhappy ones at that :( ). I enjoy this ministry so much, that I don't mind supporting this way. However, problems arise.

Sometimes, the kids want to take the drumset to another part of the building for their P&W efforts. Once, one of the kids wanted to take the drums with him to Colorado for the youth retreat. That would leave our main P&W without drums that Sunday. Additionally, he wasn't even going to tell me or ask me if he could take them. Also, things get broken or misplaced every now and then. Since the equipment belongs to me, nobody ever volunteers to fix or replace.

When it come to small invoice items, like cables and things, I turn in reimbursment receipts. But now that our church fund is low, this is not an expense the church administration is comfortable spending at this point in time.

So, at what point have I given enough? I know the lesson that 'it's not yours anyway, it belongs to God'. But at some point, my wife get frustrated with the combined financial burden of my personal G.A.S. and the churches need for G.A.S.

I have been toying with the idea of fundraising for the P&W ministry budget. But these efforts can be shallow and set a precidence of constant need to raise money. I don't want to fall into the trap of always begging.

What should I do?

A footnote:
3 years ago, the P&W Leader agreed that the church would buy my drumset that has some added features for $1000. They never did. Now, the set is worth less because of the technology and the wear & tear. I cannot sell the set for $1000 to anyone now, and the church could better spend $1000 on an improved technology drumset. Ouch :?

[TheGoodTexan]

Although I'm not current serving on a praise team, I've done it for years. I've not been the music leader, just a member of the praise team. Although I've never been offered monetary compensation, I'm not sure that I would turn it down.

I know of a pastor of a medium sized church - average about 400 in the service on any given Sunday. He wanted to transition the church from a traditional service to a modern praise & worship service. The music minister agreed and began working in guitar, bass, drums, keys, etc. into the service. But there was a good amount of musician turn-over, and usually at least one musician "no-show" every Sunday morning...which really sucks when it's the bass player or the drummer.

So the pastor asked the music minister what needed to be done to get more of a commitment from the musicians. The music minister suggested that they pay the musicians. They settled on $50 a week, per musician, and now it's one of the best praise teams I've heard.

The bottom line is this - I don't think that there's a blanket answer for this. It depends on the situation, and what the Lord has impressed on each individual's heart.

[Tim Swartz]

Reverbbb,

Thank you for your commitment to your ministry. Outwardly it looks like the P&W would be very different without your huge contribution. What about a supplemental offering to maintain the equipment? Maybe pass the plate at the end of the service? Maybe your pastor could phrase it like, "Many of you may not know that Reverbb donates the music gear that is used by the P&W team. Some of this gear is in need of repair/upgrade. Our service would be very different without a music team. We are going to now take up a collection, those of you that feel led to give...."

[reverbbb]

Originally Posted by Tim Swartz

Reverbbb,

Maybe your pastor could phrase it like, "Many of you may not know that Reverbb donates the music gear that is used by the P&W team. Some of this gear is in need of repair/upgrade. Our service would be very different without a music team. We are going to now take up a collection, those of you that feel led to give...."

Great suggestion Tim. You said it so well. When can you show up to help us with this announcement? :D

Just kidding of coarse. I feel humbled to ask for assistance. This is my struggle. In addition, at the end of every service, we already pass the plate around for the second time for contributions to our food pantry mission. This second time around is generally peoples pocket change and is only about $150 in my nearest guess. I sure don't want to take away from that offering.

It is like our team could use a sponsor (in addition to me). Again, my struggle is: 'How selfish am I being to expect reimbursment or to want to sell my drumset to the church? How selfish am I being to expect "my" drumset not to be used throughout the church like a peice of furniture? How selfish am I being to want to stop funding the repairs?'.

A few weeks ago, someone (I know who) sat on the drum-throne and it broke at a point that is not repairable. So, I went out and bought the cheapest new one I could find at G.C. Incredibly, it only cost about $30 and is fairly decent. Nobody offered to buy another one. As a matter of fact, both drummers sat on a piano bench and played for a few weeks. I guess it bothered me more than it bothered them

[Tim Swartz]

That is a tough situation....especially if there is heat from the spouse.

I've got a lesser situation, my son is in the high school praise band. A few years ago (when it was the jr. high band) I was appointed by the other parents as the guy who would go down and keep their rehearsals on track (show them how to learn songs and keep them from running loose in the building, which prior was about a 25/75% split). In the process of getting these guys whipped into shape, more and more of my gear was utilized. Some of my stuff stays at home, but when they do shows at other facilities they typically borrow halfstacks and PA stuff. So the stuff suffers the nicks and scars associated w/ gear movement. This week my son informs me that the 6550 in the modded Champ (that one of the guitarists prefers) has fallen out and the key is broke off (ouch, this is a $75-$100 Tungsol)... I gave him a 6L6 to put in. I get a call from church yesterday, "Dad, thanks for the bad tube, it doesn't even light up." I thought, "Why you ungrateful...."...but I said, "It looks like Derrek will run direct tonight.".... I get a call a half hour later, kid says, "Which tubes do I pull out of the V4 to make half power?"...."Why would you want to do that?" .... "So we can have a 6L6 for the Champ!" ... Man, why didn't I think of that? .... These juvenile tone freaks are gettin' good, but I do need to discuss the tone of that first call with jr.

[tom grossheider]

This is a very sensitive area, but your wife's feelings must be respected a great deal in these things. And you might be feeling stretched too far and ripped off and stuck in a corner. Pray for wisdom bro. I'm fortunate that our pastor plays guitar and is good with sound equipment, and I bring all my own stuff. Our former drummer works for Yamaha in Grand Rapids and got us a great drum kit that has stood the test of time. Might be time to solicit funds for a permanent kit for the church or something like that. Or start weaning them off your equipment and buying their own, they will feel a greater part of the team if they do. Just some thoughts, God will make it all good. You have a great heart for ministry, keep up the good work!

[reverbbb]

. . . for sharing your thoughts. This forum is theropy for me

Tim:

I seem to have been in your position all my life as a musician. I have always been the type that will fully accessorize with cables, hand trucks, cases, monitors, mixers, guitar strings, etc, etc. My friends have always taken advantage of my music store mentality, by adopting the small items that seem to go unattended :? . They often ask to borrow, but just seem to forget from who. This was always an annoyance for me 30 years ago as a teenager. Occasionally, I would call my friend(s) out about the "borrowed" equipment. They always seemed to make me feel like the bad guy that I wanted the item back. The same pattern seems to follow me all my life with every team situation. Even two years ago, I had to literally steal one of my guitar straps back from a friend that had borrowed TWO of them, then denied that he had either one. I have come to accept that it is my nature to share. I just wish folks realized the type of stress it causes me sometimes. But it is only a petty stress, and I need to JUST GET OVER IT!

Tom:

Thanks for your kind words and great wisdom in this matter. You are SO correct. I just need to give it up to God and let Him take this burden from me. In a way, this forum and my candor here may be His answer. It has helped me sort through a few personal issues.

~~~~~

Hmmm. Solicite for funds. I have thought about my wish list for the church and for my personal G.A.S. The last major item that I wish I had for my home studio is a Digi002 w/Pro-Tools (yikes about $3.2K including a computer!). For the church, I would like to see us get a REAL house speaker system like Bose ($6K), a 24 ch snake ($.4K), a Yamaha P250 ($1.9K), a V-Session drum set ($5K), a couple of voice pitch correcters ($1.2K) and some room acoustical treatment ($3K).

Gee, do you think I ask for too much?

[PraiseCaster]

First off, I gotta say God Bless you Roger, for seeing a need at your Church, and I'll bet, without hesitation, you jumped right in, and filled the gap! What a Servants Heart! If more people in the many, many, congregations all around the world, would just jump in and fill the gaps like that (secretarial needs, accounting, building repair/maintenance, volunteering for visitation/child care/helps ministry), most Church's would not be struggling to fill these sometimes burdensome gaps, but concentrating more on the Great Commission! We need more Servants like you Roger, and we cant afford to lose any like you either!

The reason why I say this, is it sounds to me, like it is beginning to be a little wearisome to you, and no longer a joy like it used to be. I'm not saying there is no joy in it for you now, but that there is a burden on your shoulders, and it's made more difficult by seeing others that, maybe without them thinking, dont appreaciate, and respect those items that you bring in for the Church's benefit. Like the one that broke the drum throne, I kinda get the feeling that it wasnt one of the drummers (I'm only assuming, I could be wrong, and if so ignore my presumptouis assumption).

Now, I like what Tom said, it may just be time now, to start weaning them (the musicians, and the Church leadership) from expecting that you will take care of it all. Because in my opinion, that can be the starting point for them to not care so much about the equipment. Also, if this equipment is yours, I think you have a right to express that only the musicians in the P&W band are to handle the instruments, and that includes the drum throne. They are not toy's, they are sanctified musical instruments, that lift praise to God, and need to be respected as such. I'm not saying state it in a mean or cold attitude, but in a way that say's "it would be hurtful too you to see an instrument damaged unnecesarrily, and being unable to be used in service to praise God.

Also, you may have to set down with your Pastor, and let him know how much you have enjoyed giving in this ministry, and want to continue to give, but, it is difficult for just yourself to maintain all of the equipment, and instruments, and you need to start releasing some of this to the other musicians, and the Church. Now I'm only suggesting these thing's because I dont want to see you burn out, but rather continue to rejoice in you being a Servant to Christ.

Now I did over simplify some of the statements here, so please dont take it like I'm coming off, or I'm thinking that all your fellow congregants, are disrespectful and uncaring; I'm not. Most likely, they are just comfortable with the fact that you take care of it all, so it's not a 'Biggie' to them.

[PraiseCaster]

I think that it is important that you do make a change, because from what you stated, it sounds like it might be a small point of contention between you, and your wife. And speaking as a fellow married man, I would hate to have a point of contention brewing with my best freind, my wife. So much so, if my playing guitar was a point of contention with her, I would sell my gear off in a New York Minute! No I'm not selling my stuff, so no Email offers ok! My wife knows I love playing, and she indulges me and my lil passion!

OK, there is my full 2 cents worth, but the lawyers constrain me to state, that due to inflation, recession, stock market unbalance, agravation, and overseas money rates, My 2 cents worth is only worth half of that now!

[reverbbb]

I realize from your response, that I was whining (I never know how to spell that word). The fact is, I may have a little petty annoyance. But I need to tell you that things are so much better now than 3 years ago. Here's why:

Our Pastor has a vision of not one large church, but rather 40 small churches to be established in 20 years. The challenge is, define small. Well, we took our 225+ congregation and split into a North & South church nearly 4 years ago. The South church kept meeting at the building, whilst the North church met in our local Jr. High school. I was geographically located in the north, so I took my attendance and services with the North church.

This is the period where my commitment for service was really tested. The North P&W team still wanted a PA and instruments. The South had a resident drummer, pianist, and bass player (eventually though, their bass player stopped coming). For the North church, I would swing from keyboards to guitar and occassionally the bass. We had access to two drummers and one bass player. The school had a nice Yamaha baby grand that just made my day everytime I got the chance to play it.

Have you guessed yet?

I owned a trailer. Now I think you can guess what happened then. I moved all the music stands, drums, guitars, amps, PA, keyboard, stools, big projection screen every Sunday to the school and setup. Most of the time, I would setup about 80% of the system by myself. Eventually, some of the more dedicated folks on the P&W team would come strolling in at around 8:15~8:30. We would setup, rehearse for 1-1/2 hours, I would be exhausted, then I would play my heart out for another hour. Then, after the Pastor finished his teaching at around 12:15, I would begin to tear down. I ususally got finished packing and dropping the trailer back home at around 1:30.

This was truly a test of my heart. For the first 3 months, I was very testy and agitated that I had to do so much. Eventually, I got into the swing of things, prayed about it, and really got used to this committed way of life.

In addition to Sundays, we were meeting every Tuesday in my small bedroom/studio for rehearsals. There were no beds, but plenty of my equipment. Sometimes we would have 9 people crammed into this hot-box. Often, the drummer would show up, then I would have to pull the drums out of the trailer and set them up in the studio. This is where I got several scratches and pings on the doorways in my house. Then, I would have to pack the drums all up again so that we could use them the following Sunday.

We did this for about 2 years. Finally, the church elders (N & S) declared that the two churches needed to come back together. Why? Because the South church was loosing synergy and the people resourses were stretched too thin. The South church had lost several members and donations in the process. So, we rejoined the two churches. It is funny how many issues arose from the two P&W teams rejoining. That is when we started the kids P&W ministry. I sometimes swing over and help them out on keyboards.

So . . . times like these are much more relaxed than they were 3 years ago. Life is EASY in comparison.

So what is my complaint? Actually, I did not realize that I was complaining until you posted. I was really attempting to add to the thread in retrospect of sharing equipment for God's glory. I truly am so blessed and happy with my comission with my church. The rewards are seeing college kids being saved and loving our church culture as it glorifies God. The rewards are seeing bikers invite their friends to come hear the great music (not that were are any good), and listen to the great message.

I am far from being burned out. I am trying to build up a new head of stream and write songs for His glory. This is all so rewarding for my heart. I cannot imagine working in a night club band any more. I haven't played in a club for over 3 years, and that was just open mic blues jam nights.

It is funny how far I have come in my walk. 7 years ago, it was a GREAT challenge for my wife to drag me into church with any sort of consistancy. Now, she can't keep me away from the services of church.

Thanks again for reading my essay long posts.

[reverbbb]

Originally Posted by PraiseCaster

Like the one that broke the drum throne, I kinda get the feeling that it wasnt one of the drummers (I'm only assuming, I could be wrong, and if so ignore my presumptouis assumption).

Actully, the 3rd drummer is the one that broke the throne. He is generally the more mature and level headed between the 3 drummers (and brings his own equipment). However, he is constantly borrowing my audio cables and power packs for his SPD-20.

Originally Posted by Praisecaster

Now I did over simplify some of the statements here, so please dont take it like I'm coming off, or I'm thinking that all your fellow congregants, are disrespectful and uncaring; I'm not. Most likely, they are just comfortable with the fact that you take care of it all, so it's not a 'Biggie' to them.

You are absolutely correct that it is no 'Biggie' to them. They are not unappreciative at all. They just see everything happening . . . almost correctly . . . every Sunday and don't give it much thought. I am relieved that I don't have to double as the soundman and musician any more. We finally have some volunteers filling the role of soundman.

There is another guy at our church who has stepped up and performed incredible feats in the AV realm recently. He has us on Internet streaming, 3 cameras, a live video mixer and all the multi-media overlays (Powerpoint) that you could ask for. This Sunday, he has wired another video system to our kid's ministry room. We will actually have a video simulcast in each room with two P&W teams trading off songs. Each Worship Center will see and hear what is happening in the other room. This will be a huge technical feat to pull off for such a small church with no AV budget. My thanks can't be strong enough for all of his (Phil's) efforts as well.[/quote]

[bubba_b]

I don't think any musician here would argue that if they could afford to play for free, they would because they love it and do it on their own time anyway without pay because it's a part of who they are. If you have a day job that meets your needs and you have the time outside of that to contribute your gifts to God for free, then by all means, do so. I think the question shouldn't be from the musician "should I be paid for playing", but rather the question should be asked by the church "should we pay our musicians".

The first question is always going to be subjective to the individual musician. Some want to be paid, others feel as deeply as to say they feel being paid would rob them of their spiritual blessing. Personally, I wouldn't go that far, but I digress. The second question is much easier to answer and able to be backed by scripture. There have been several mentions of the Levites and the I Timothy verse on the workman being worthy of his hire. I have yet, however, to see any scriptural backing for not paying a musician for his time, talent and offering. If a musician refuses or gives back payment, that is his prerogative.

I see it this way: If I am a professional christian musician - meaning this is what I do for a living - I would much rather make my living doing it for God's people, ministering to my community, than to be forced to do it elsewhere for lack of willingness of the Church to pay me. I once worked under a worship pastor who wanted our church to move toward paying it's worship team a stipend every week and the church leaders refused. His statement to me was, "I would much rather have professional musicians come play in the House of God and be ministered to, than for them to have to do it in a bar on the weekends because they'll be paid." I think that if musicians are forced to play in seedy establishments to make ends meet because their church won't pay them for it, then that's a problem. It's no wonder to me why the quality level of musicianship is so much lower in the christian world than in the secular world (not in every case, but by and large). How often do you see secular artists trying to "cross-over" into the christian market? Ha!

I'm getting a bit off subject here, so I'll just end with this.

There's no question to me that the church should pay it's talent - whether it's a pastor, teacher, sound man...or musician. That doesn't mean that anyone who wants to play should be - there's the skill, calling and training part, too. Whether the talent wants or accepts that payment is up to him and respectable either way, but give them the choice, don't dictate it. People and their offerings are valuable, so show it.