Should church musicians be paid??

[psychetelec]

I make a good(OK, decent) living using my God-given talent as a musician, so I consider my time spent playing in the church band on Sunday mornings and in rehearsals to be a "talent tithe". Plus they buy me bass strings. So no.

[Billy G. McCoy]

Well JEFFsJEEP.

You are obviously not a full time musician.
Yes, read ALL of Romans...you are still uneducated. Ask you Pastor about it.

I play guitar for a living and I choose to play in church instead of other secular venues that I could play on Sundays.
There are a lot of churches that have no problem with paying me for my skill/services.

Why do you guys have a problem with it?

You guys just are uneducated....you think you know what you are talking about but you don't....I can tell you both couldn't make a living playing guitar if you wanted to....so you want to kick the guy who can.

(SAX)...you refer to me disrespectfully as just an axeslinger and that I should leave the non paying gigs alone.
How idiodic is that?
I am an axeslinger and I am proud that I was able to take this talent that God gave me and multiply that and provide for my family.

AGAIN....I do sometimes give of my time/services to the church and to other benefits...but I don't do that on a regular basis....I would not be able to pay my bills.
Nevertheless, I have stated this before, and you guys just ignore that part...

Neither one of you guys want a musician to get paid, because that would put you guys in a catagory of musician that DON'T get paid.
Doesn't make me any less of a Christian or you guys an more of a Christian...

AND YES, the goal is for the band to be as good as humanly possible...we should expect to be highly skilled and give our BEST!

I didn't hear any rebuttal from you guys on the Christian Artists who make a living playing/recording music that you both purchase on a regular basis.
Those same artists perform in churches all the time for a fee.

What....no rebuttal on the LAKEWOOD band and music there????
The guitar player alone makes more money a year than both SAX and JEFFSJEEP put together.

That is wonderful if you ask me....he plays music for a living. He is an axeslinger too!....a really good one!

Why can't you guys be happy for those of us who do make a living playing guitar and happen to get paid to play in church too?

I may reitterate that I tithe and give offerings. Sometimes my offering is MY time and talent...sometimes it is monitary. Either way, it is NOT up to you or anybody else to say that I should NOT get paid and that I should give of my TALENT. It is MY choice alone how I give my "offering" and what that "Offering" should be....whether my time/talent or monitary.

Instead of kicking people and judging...why dont you embrace the idea that there are highly skilled players that WANT to keep playing in Church and if they get paid...we should be happy that the Church and GOD is taking care of his children monitarily as well.

Over and OUT!

[Durtdog]

Now I remember why I stopped going to church.

[TELEkinetic]

Originally Posted by Billy G. McCoy

You guys just are uneducated....you think you know what you are talking about but you don't....I can tell you both couldn't make a living playing guitar if you wanted to....so you want to kick the guy who can.

Billy - It appears you missed day one of the Dale Carnegie course !

I don't think I've ever seen a post locked in this forum before, but........

[Billy G. McCoy]

On the contrary Telekinetic...

Just tired of being hated on.
It's funny you didn't mention the other two boys missing the Course....even though they missed the point and their education.

Okay....that's enough.
I let my feelings get out of control on this stuff.....this is ridiculous!

Dirt Dog...you are CORRECT....I had left the church once and contemplated it again a few years ago because of stuff like this.

I need to apologize right now to everybody!
Especially Sax4blues and Jeffsjeep. I'm sorry boys....I shouldn't have got worked up that way.

I apologize to you to Telekinetic....as I apparently offended you as well.

That was not my intention at all....I just started out answering the post just like everybody else....it just seems like I'm the ONLY musician here getting paid for what I do. There are others like me who get chastised for this all the time.

Once again, I apologize to all of you that I offended.

Billy

[twangcaster1]

In the scriptures, Jesus said that he dispises the hireling because he does not care about the sheep. I think getting paid to play music in church(a.k.a worshiping God for material gain) would be offensive to Him and would technically make the person a hireling.

[sax4blues]

Originally Posted by sax4blues

I guess I did not read the part that church music is the full time job and primary source of income. I agree, if my main income is from the church then of course I will be paid. I have a good friend who is worship/music leader in the church world and he is paid, that’s his full time profession, working in the church. I would never ask someone to sacrifice their financial stability to serve.

I do not believe there is a rule that musicians should be paid. I think it’s fine if they are.

If a church decides to pay people to play music, manage IT systems, oversee daycare, repair facilities, clean windows, cook food for the homeless,..... I think that is all great, I really do. And if I've dedicated my life to serving ministry at the exclusion of other income of course I must provide for my family financially. I want you to be paid.

Five times I said I agree with paying people to work in church, including musicians (what the hey, I'd even include drummers). I'm not sure how much more supportive I can get. I am sorry that my personal opinion that churches are not obligated to pay musicians any differently than other members who serve was presented as bashing.

[TELEkinetic]

Billy - I wasn't offended. Just suggesting that by looking at your number of posts that you are relatively new here. We welcome you here - and your opinions. However, when folks start saying personal things, posts get locked, feelings get hurt, etc......

Personally, I play nearly every Sunday and wouldn't take a dime for it. Playing for 44 years, a lot of the people in my church ask me if I play professionally (I don't), but after all this time I might be considered to play at a professional level.

I'm now giving back for all the %$#@ I did during my youth.

Apology accepted.

[Billy G. McCoy]

Thanks Telekinetic.

Sax4blues.....Yes, I read your posts...also noticed you agreed with JeffsJeep. No matter....I apologized because I thought it was the right thing
to do my friend. I got offended...and when that happens...I am supposed to ask for forgiveness. (Biblical)

Twangcaster....I don't think God is offended at all for hiring people for their services.
The Pastor and other folks in the church get paid....
I think God would prefer to take care of his children as much as possible including monetarily if possible.

Just like we would do with our own children.
Besides...it is Biblical.....please read up on it.

Billy

[Billy G. McCoy]

Hey Sax4blues....
apology accepted. I did take it as bashing...I'm sorry.

Telekinetic....just because I have very little posts as THIS user....doesn't mean I have'nt been here before and doesn't mean I have'nt been here for a few years lurking about the forum.
I have been in this forum for a LONG time....been here under another username as well.
Also....been around the block a time or two....I'm 42 years old.
The personal attacks were focused on me first...nevertheless, the Christian thing to do IS NOT lose my temper...which I did....which in turn, is why I apologized. :)

I wasn't aware that the thread got locked.....how am I still able to post if it is locked???

B

[refin]

Group hug.................

[bubba_b]

I'm an audio/visual engineer. For 16+ years I've been studying and working in that field. It is how I make my living. For the last 7 years or so, I've made 95% of my income doing it for the Church. I still do. I've been the employee and the employer. As an employee, I need to be paid for my work because it is my profession. If an employer doesn't pay, I move on. As an employer, I would not consider EVER asking - let alone insisting - that someone do what I need them to do for nothing. If I'm wanting a job done by them, I've already vetted them as a qualified candidate and the requirements of the task justify payment. I've also been a musician (guitar, drums, bass, vocals) for the past 22 years. I have volunteered and been paid for my playing. With that said, let me say this.

I see no difference between someone who gets paid or doesn't for playing for the Church. As I've said before, it is the personal decision of the worker on accepting payment or not.

The more I read this thread and the responses to it, the more I see what a divide money becomes in every aspect of life. A church I work at regularly (as a soundman) has been in a series about finances and what the Bible says about this area. There's so much in this area to talk about it would take several pages to skim the surface, but there are a few good points I want to make about it.

1. Our money is NOT OUR money. Everything we have, including our own lives, belong to God and Him alone.
2. We are stewards of what God has placed in our care and He holds us accountable for how we use those resources. Money, for some reason, seems to be the most difficult thing for us to give up.

I am 100% convinced that if money and tithing were not such an issue with Christians, this whole paid musician issue would be moot. Look at it like this: in the average Christian church, the income received through offering is about 2-3% of the average household income for the given area they live. Also consider that some members give above and beyond the 10% God asks of us. At this church I work at, they put some numbers up to make a comparison. If every member were being obedient and tithing, the church would bring in about $43 million/yr. Currently, they budget on about $13 million annually because that's what they get. In contrast, if every single person in the church were tithing obediently and everyone was living at the poverty line, the church would net a $1 million/yr. increase! Do some research on what the effects of an obediently tithing church would have on the world and it will sicken you to see what we are not doing with the money God has blessed us with. He has given us so much and only asks for 10% to take care of His bride and we're still too greedy to do even that. Our boats and flat screen TV's and Starbucks are more important to us.

I urge all of you to consider that bringing your money to God is the best thing you can do for yourself and the Bride of Christ. It will free you. This is the only place in the Bible that God challenges us to test Him in this! How much more assurance do you need?! Give Him what He asks and He will surely not withhold more blessing than you can handle.

How does this relate to paid musicians? If every Christian church had a fully tithing congregation, there would never be an issue of "we can't afford it", no matter the size of the church body. Every department and ministry would have more than enough resources to pay a substantial staff, reach the entire world for Christ AND end poverty and world hunger...within a year!

Lastly, I want to say that God works His will through us...people. When we (His people) refuse to pay others for services, we are stepping out of our ability to be the blessing that God may be wanting us to be in providing for that person. God doesn't drop bags of money on people's doorsteps who volunteer their services. He provides for them by using other people. Don't assume that you are not the "other people" God wants to use to bless someone and help provide for their needs. We are all the "other people".

[bubba_b]

Originally Posted by psychetelec

I make a good(OK, decent) living using my God-given talent as a musician, so I consider my time spent playing in the church band on Sunday mornings and in rehearsals to be a "talent tithe". Plus they buy me bass strings. So no.

As I have always said, if you don't want to be paid for playing, that's ok. However, it should not be expected of you. They buy you strings, that's cool. At least they understand that even playing for free is not playing for free. The cost you pay personally for wear-n-tear on your gear can be financially substantial at times. Tubes (and bass strings) are not cheap.

You can't, however, consider your playing a "talent tithe". What you literally said there was, "...I consider my time spent playing in the church band on Sunday mornings and in rehearsals to be a "talent tenth". The literal meaning of tithe is "a tenth" or 10%. Are you saying you give 10% of your talent to church playing? I know that's not what you meant, but it's important to remember that your time and talent are not a replacement for tithing. Nowhere does God say that's ok. Learning to let go of your control over money and let God be your source of security is extremely important to Him. Do both. Without proper funding, the Church can't succeed and He knows this. We are ALL to be a part of caring for the Church financially, not just 20% of us (the typical % of church attendees that give anything at all).

[scooteraz]

It is different for each situation. There are Christian churches out there that think Pastors should not be paid either. They feel that the apostle Paul was showing the way how a Christian teacher should act by not getting paid for his preaching (he was a tent maker). Most mainstream Christian churches do pay pastors and other professional church staff.

That word "professional" seems to be the dividing line. If they are hired for their specific services in a certain area, e.g. pastor or secretary (or even music director), then they get paid. Most places, however, do not pay the choir. They are considered as volunteers. That is, they are not considered professional; therefore, they are not "worthy" of wages. Not that some, if not many or most, could not make at least some money at their art, just that they do not and have not been contracted by their church.

I have played for some years in my church band. Now, I think that changing from my day job to being a working musician would be a HUGE effort (particularly since my current skill level would have to come up, in my opinion). So, I am probably among those who Billy G. McCoy would think inadequate for prime time. Not sure I disagree in that. I have been volunteer for the entire time I have played. However, since my volunteer time does not "officially" count for my tithe, I have begun to re-asses whether volunteers should not get paid. I am better than 3 chords (hey, didn't Billy Gibbons say something about 3 chords and 30 years of music when their XXX album was released? just saying) but Stephen Curtis Chapman I am not.

Suppose the church had to pay each "volunteer" some nominal fee for their services rendered at the going rate? Even if this money were just turned back to the church as an offering, at least the person providing the service is being compensated. And then, if it is turned back to the church, no one can discount the value of a volunteers contribution. There are a lot of issues with this as a model, but it is a thought. From an IRS standpoint, it would be compensation (say on a 1099) and a deductible contribution (on your 1040). And everyone is happy...but the bookkeeper. Just a thought.

[psychetelec]

Originally Posted by bubba_b

As I have always said, if you don't want to be paid for playing, that's ok. However, it should not be expected of you. They buy you strings, that's cool. At least they understand that even playing for free is not playing for free. The cost you pay personally for wear-n-tear on your gear can be financially substantial at times. Tubes (and bass strings) are not cheap.

You can't, however, consider your playing a "talent tithe". What you literally said there was, "...I consider my time spent playing in the church band on Sunday mornings and in rehearsals to be a "talent tenth". The literal meaning of tithe is "a tenth" or 10%. Are you saying you give 10% of your talent to church playing? I know that's not what you meant, but it's important to remember that your time and talent are not a replacement for tithing. Nowhere does God say that's ok. Learning to let go of your control over money and let God be your source of security is extremely important to Him. Do both. Without proper funding, the Church can't succeed and He knows this. We are ALL to be a part of caring for the Church financially, not just 20% of us (the typical % of church attendees that give anything at all).

Yeah...climb down off that high horse for a sec and show me where in my original post I mentioned I don't tithe. Please put it in big bold letters too 'cause I can't find it. I really don't see how someone could totally misunderstand a post. And, I don't need anyone telling me the meaning of the word tithe. Thanks.
As I said, I make a living playing music, the time spent playing/practicing at church is in fact, roughly 10% of the the time I spend playing in a week. So...I consider that time as payback for the talent God has given me, what I called a talent tithe(I thought that was a pretty good description but apparently not), and thus do not/would not take payment for it.

[sax4blues]

Originally Posted by bubba_b

As I have always said, if you don't want to be paid for playing, that's ok. However, it should not be expected of you.

Throughout this entire thread I struggle to understand how someone is "expected" to play for free? My church does not pay. I can either offer to play, or not. Nobody has called me with the expectation that I play or somehow I would not be welcome at the church. We have members who are much better musicians than me that don't play in church.

Maybe it would help me understand the frustration if I heard an example of how a church makes someone play?

[Sterling Indigo]

...now who did you say you play for again?

[Telebass]

I feel honored and blessed that I've been invited by multiple churches to play in their bands. I guess I could see if there was a very large time commitment involved maybe getting some compensation for your practice time, but I don't think I could accept real pay for it. I've played in Sunday morning contemporary bands for two churches, youth service bands for one of those churches as well as a third, and also led worship solo for a youth group at one of them, but I get enough enjoyment out of praising God with or without others that I don't think I need any further compensation. This past summer though, I was actually given surprise compensation for playing in the band at my parents church as one of the members bought me a brand new G&L Legacy (strat) for coming to play lead for them. I almost felt bad accepting it, but I would have felt bad turning down the gift as well (and as a poor college student/guitar player, you don't pass up a free guitar )

[bubba_b]

Originally Posted by sax4blues

Throughout this entire thread I struggle to understand how someone is "expected" to play for free? My church does not pay. I can either offer to play, or not. Nobody has called me with the expectation that I play or somehow I would not be welcome at the church. We have members who are much better musicians than me that don't play in church.

Maybe it would help me understand the frustration if I heard an example of how a church makes someone play?

I never said any church "makes" people play. I only said you would be expected (at most churches) to play - if you were asked to or auditioned for the role - for free. They make it clear in the process that you would be volunteering and not monetarily compensated. Therefore, if you want to be in the band, you are doing so with the expectation that you will not be paid. Just to be extra clear - you are not expected to play, you are expected to not be paid if you do.

Psychetelec: You asked me to show you where you said you don't tithe. I can't, because you didn't say that and neither did I. I'm sorry if you took it that way. All I was saying is tithe and time are not the same thing, but your post could lead someone to think they are interchangeable. That's all I'm going to say about the matter.

[JeffsJeep04]

Billy, I hate that it got so heated, I just think we see things very differently. I'm not trying to keep anyone down. You say you turn down secular gigs to play at church, and I just had a very hard time believing that, is it studio work?

Anyway, to me, the biggest difference between 99% of worship guitar players and the ones who are making more then everyone in this thread combined is that they are writing and producing their own music. That is a full time job. When you practice one night a week and devote a sunday to it, you aren't compromising your earning potential for your family.

A pastor gives his whole week to the church, and is paid accordingly. If the church you play at requires a large portion of your time (say, 10 hours or more a week), then yes, pay should be discussed. I haven't come across that situation before, but then again, I've never been involved in a church with more then a few thousand members. Perhaps some of the mega churches require that amount of time from their players. It's not for me, and that's why I'm in a small congregation now. I think when it gets to that point, the production values get in the way of a real connection. That is just for me personally, if you feel opposite, then that is your way to worship and I am glad that we live in a country that allows us to worship in our own way.