Should church musicians be paid??

[mrpianohimself]

Originally Posted by Robbied_216

I'll be honest...I didn't really read anyones post in great detail.....

I have my own opinions about things, but at the end of the day our salvation doesn't hang on this topic....I know it is great discussion for many, but I have aired my thoughts, and I don't want to be a stumbling block for anyone. There are many topics that could be discussed (argued??) till we are all blue in the face. But I choose not. I think if I have enough time on my hands sitting around with my brothers trying to split hairs, I should allocate more time to spreading the Word....

Just my little 2 cents....I just hope that this thread doesn't cause anyone to be offended, as that is definately not my intent....

Thanks for listening....

No, thank you. I am most certainly not offended, it is discussion that is needed. And my intentions are geared toward the church for they are the leaders and have caused the confusion. I am always open to hear one of my fellow musicians point of view on this. A lot of musicians and their families have been hurt because the church has not allowed them to use their gifts in a way that it would make room for them while playing in the church, without having to club it. Dialogue is good because it begins the healing, kind of like what is going on right now in america with the election of the first ever african american president, people of different cultures are now a little more open to talk about the past ills of this nation. Nonetheless if you get time in your schedule please look at my post above, there are only 2 on this same page, and feel free to tell me what you think. If not I respect that and I thank you for your time.

mr piano..

[PRUNEFACE]

I think God understands that bassists do not make the most money, it isn't wrong to recieve compensation for using your talents.

[markesquire]

1) Worship music is not about music at all.

2) Playing at church is our insufficient but representative "payment" for what God already gave us in salvation and in our talents.

[psychetelec]

Originally Posted by markesquire

1) Worship music is not about music at all.

2) Playing at church is our insufficient but representative "payment" for what God already gave us in salvation and in our talents.

Careful, I said the same thing earlier in this thread and someone got VERY upset.

[mrpianohimself]

Originally Posted by psychetelec

Careful, I said the same thing earlier in this thread and someone got VERY upset.

I don't know why people don't just read the bible and do what it says concerning this subject, instead we like to just put in our own opinions, heck we comment on other post without even reading them all the way through????? so what does that tell u??

mr piano..

[Billy G. McCoy]

Here Here Mrpianohimself!!!!

I couldn't have said it better myself.
I was impressed with the other passages you mentioned. I had forgot about those.
I will have them handy from now on.

Now lets get on to playing TELECASTER in church!!!! :)

[Doug 54]

no.

music is a gift from God

[sax4blues]

This from craigslist, seems pretty straight forward, no confusion:

"I am a part time worship leader in a small community church in ****. I live in ***. I am looking for a paid worship leader position...."

I recently saw another craigslist posting for a drummer with the upfront expectation of being paid.

[gtrpkr]

If they want you to be at their beck and call for playing purposes, it is like having a weekly job. If they want top level musicians, that really know what they are doing (more that knowing more than 2-3 chords and the same tempo and phrasing over and over, .....well.. what do you think? Top notch players can be kept on a retainer. As a pro-level musician, there are things that have to be taken into consideration...instrument upkeep, strings etc.., travel expenses....and your time!

Just my thoughts as a guitar player that has been around for a long time!

[sonserve]

I have been paid to play other venues a good part of my life. It is not an option at our church. Just the way it is. Since I joined our P&T team I have been blessed beyond measure, my life is just better.
Oh, I met a great lady at church! (she liked that groovy bass cat) I sold an Ovation Breadwinner to get her a ring:)
God Bless us one and all...

[thejerk]

I didn't read all the posts up to now, so others may share this view. I think musicians deserve to be paid, and not just be expected to play. However, payment means formal arrangements, such as commitment and professionalism like any other job.

There is no problem with volunteering your services if you choose, but then you should be informal. If you need to sit out one week, or skip a rehearsal.

I see no problem with mixing both, as many churches do. The folks who want to sing/play as volunteers do, but there's less pressure on them. The paid folks have to really be on their "A" game.

[electric]

Originally Posted by thejerk

I didn't read all the posts up to now, so others may share this view. I think musicians deserve to be paid, and not just be expected to play. However, payment means formal arrangements, such as commitment and professionalism like any other job.

There is no problem with volunteering your services if you choose, but then you should be informal. If you need to sit out one week, or skip a rehearsal.

I see no problem with mixing both, as many churches do. The folks who want to sing/play as volunteers do, but there's less pressure on them. The paid folks have to really be on their "A" game.

I agree. I haven't read all the post, but had to chime in. I think it's a personal decision. I don't judge either way. As for myself I see it as a gift back or tithe of my talent back to God. But if they chose to pay me I wouldn't turn it down either.

[AmberJN]

I'm curious as to why musical ability is a gift from God, but healing ability (i.e. doctors and nurses) isn't? Is a talent for administration and organization not God-given? I say being able to fix a car or a computer is a God-given gift. Musicians, doctors, and auto mechanics must spend time learning their craft. By some posters' logic, Christian auto mechanics and doctors shouldn't be paid for their work.

Also, if a musician were to be paid by his or her church for services, how can we say that God has not led the leaders of the church to do so? Is it surprising that God may actually provide through His church for someone other than the pastors and the destitute? *gasp* The Gospel is supposed to support those who proclaim the Gospel, meaning believers are supposed to help those who proclaim God's Truth. Why doesn't that include monetary compensation for musicians proclaiming the Gospel in a musical form?

I agree that worship is not about music at all, but I submit that what occurs when a "worship" band or team plays is actually praise. Worship is between a person and God. I cannot share my worship with anyone else, it has to do with my personal relationship with Him. Praise is my testimony for all to hear how much the Lord has done for me, how much I want to please Him because of His great love for me, and to spread his Gospel out of love for Him and my fellow man. That can help congregation members worship God, and I praise and thank Him for using me to help my friends in Christ, but it makes little sense to attempt to put my "worship" on display for others. To me, that seems like a path to Pharasaism.

The question becomes: Do I follow the argument that I am consecrated to the Lord to do His work in His temple, as the Levites were, and as such, deserve a portion of the tithes given the church? Or do I follow Paul's example in 1 Corinthians 9 that though I work to dedicate more and more of my life to His ministry, I won't ask for provision, if the church doesn't offer to provide it, that I may boast in God's ability to provide for me so that I may share His Gospel without charge?

As for not turning this into a theological debate, because the initial question is not a question about guitar and playing performance in church but one about church government, finance, and the personal beliefs of forum users as to the nature of the musician's role in church, theological debate is inevitable. The initial post lays out questions that are against forum guidelines, if one wants to be persnickety about it. I've found the whole discussion very enlightening, and thus far, the admins and mods haven't shut it down yet, so I assume they've decided to overlook it to the benefit of those of us that want to examine the question.

[barkley]

Careful, youll have that crazed rebel they call jesus turning over the tables soon...

[teleman55]

J.S. Bach got paid to be a Church musician. Look what that gave us. Maybe we should all get paid.
But, I played a rock (or R&B) show Friday night.
Played a Gospel one Saturday night...
Didn't get paid for that. Didn't expect to. Just using the gift God gave me to Praise the Lord. But, I think in the bigger Churches, the organist/choir director, music director, worship leader, cantor, or whatever the term, depending on the denomination, etc., should get paid, because in a big Church that is at least a part-time job. Also when we travelled doing Gospel we didn't really get paid, but our costs were covered.

[brewwagon]

to me singing & playing music is like praying or giving thanks and praises

to expect a monetary reward sounds like satans plan

so you give it back feed the people give the old and sick care the youth education

share the gift of love

bw

[Saxguitar]

I don't think that they should be paid. I just began getting paid after four years of playing not becaus eI wanted it but because the praise director said she felt that the PT wouldn't be where it is without me. I don't want to get paid to play for the Lord so I either give it right back as a offering or use it to buy equipment just for church and PT to use. I never could get paid to play for a PT and keep it it just doesn't feel right.

[jb12string]

Here is where I come down on the issue:
If a person is employed by the church, pay them.
If not, then it depends on the church, if they can afford it, and the musicians accept, why not, same for sunday school teachers, nursery workers etc.
Personally, I do water treatment full-time, and I choose to give my time to work on the water treatment at church and several other projects that I can use my various skills for.

One other thing I wanted to address was Mr. Piano's point about this being addressed in the bible. The "church" didn't exist in the Old Testament, the rules that you were pointing out in the Old Testament were for the nation of Israel, not the Church.

[jb12string]

Originally Posted by Robbied_216

I have my own opinions about things, but at the end of the day our salvation doesn't hang on this topic

^^^^^^^^This gets a big amen!

[neocaster]

Odd timing for this topic to be resurrected. I was talking to a friends this week. He has been shouldering a greater load of administering his church's p&w program. They came to him and offered him a small salary to make his position official. I joked that he would find unfavor for taking the money, but my only opinion was this:

He did it for free because it's his way of giving to his community. The church, which is a financial entity, owns propertey, ect., found his service valuable enough that they sought to secure it. If no pay is offered, the expectation is that you are giving yoru time and talents to the community. If the church puts money on the table for this task, you are free to take it. If this does not sit riight with you, you are also free to not take it. As far as worrying what the rest of the community is doing, doesn't that just provide a convenient distraction from focusing on what you're supposed to be doing?

[justatwanging]

Originally Posted by GuitarSmith

JDO wrote:
"Do not muzzle the ox while it is treading out the grain," and "The worker deserves his wages." I Timothy 5:17-18


I use that verse on my wife whenever I'm thinking about a new piece of gear. Hehe....

That's great! I belly-chuckled out loud! I've been buying guitar gear like a "dumb ox" (Thomas Aquinas' nickname) this summer and unfortunately my "wages" from guitar work never balance the books!

It can be kinda fun (the Puritans did something akin to this) to use Bible verses in a silly way -- I like the first clause of Colossians 2:21 placed on the AC thermostat on a hot July night -- God says in His Word, "Do not touch..." Might be used when the kiddies put sticky Kool Aid fingers on your Strat's rosewood fingerboard!

Uh, the "worker" could be a pastor, Sunday school teacher,musician, secretary,janitor. ect.

[Pickalittle]

I don't want to be paid for one simple reason. I don't want to lose my reward for serving him with all my heart in music ministry. He WILL pay me far more than I could receive in monetary pay on this earth, however that compensation will look like in heaven.

From an earthly perspective, we don't get paid for a very simple economic reason.
There will always be someone down the road who can take our place for free. Our church has multiple guitarists and keyboardists and drummers who will gladly play for free. The only ones who are hard to find are good bass players. That's the truth!

[scooteraz]

Originally Posted by Pickalittle

I don't want to be paid for one simple reason. I don't want to lose my reward for serving him with all my heart in music ministry. He WILL pay me far more than I could receive in monetary pay on this earth, however that compensation will look like in heaven.

From an earthly perspective, we don't get paid for a very simple economic reason.
There will always be someone down the road who can take our place for free. Our church has multiple guitarists and keyboardists and drummers who will gladly play for free. The only ones who are hard to find are good bass players. That's the truth!

So, the lesson here is get good on bass, you will always be popular.

[Brian Krashpad]

Originally Posted by twangcaster1

In the scriptures, Jesus said that he dispises the hireling because he does not care about the sheep. I think getting paid to play music in church(a.k.a worshiping God for material gain) would be offensive to Him and would technically make the person a hireling.

So, no paid clergy?



I say, if a church wants to pay people and can, that's fine.

I've always been a volunteer and never got a dime (actually my music director at my prior church gave me a small gift once as a token of appreciation for playing at his Catholic church across town), but that doesn't mean that because its right for me and my church it is right for everyone else and their church.

[Hiker]

This is true for some of the voices in various churches (my sis-in-law). So, by the same token, would a musician cross town to play in church rehearsals and services for a regular check?

Where/When do I show up for the audition? And, yes, I've performed as a volunteer in regular services, and Christmas programs.

[justatwanging]

Originally Posted by jb12string

Here is where I come down on the issue:
If a person is employed by the church, pay them.
If not, then it depends on the church, if they can afford it, and the musicians accept, why not, same for sunday school teachers, nursery workers etc.
Personally, I do water treatment full-time, and I choose to give my time to work on the water treatment at church and several other projects that I can use my various skills for.

One other thing I wanted to address was Mr. Piano's point about this being addressed in the bible. The "church" didn't exist in the Old Testament, the rules that you were pointing out in the Old Testament were for the nation of Israel, not the Church.

Have you ever looked up the definition of the Greek word that our word "church" is derived from?

Playing for money should be between the individual and God first and then his/her local congregation.

[teletele]

All that you are is from Him, your talents, your time and your finances. Can I give back enough? Never.
We do have a support network where, should a worship team member be in a tight spot, financial support is addressed. For the most, we are happy to 'serve' His purposes with what He has given graciously to a sinner like me.

[jb12string]

Originally Posted by justatwanging

Have you ever looked up the definition of the Greek word that our word "church" is derived from?

Was this directed at me? I could make an assumption to where you are going, but that wouldn't be productive. I'll gladly respond, if you'd like, but I'm going to need to know where your headed.

[surfco]

Praising God is our reward. We don't need to be paid.

[justatwanging]

Originally Posted by surfco

Praising God is our reward. We don't need to be paid.

The same could be said for the music minister [praise and worship leader].

[mrSlush50]

If the church can afford it, then yes. Why would certain jobs in the church be paid but not others? It is all ministry right? And we are all called to minister right? So the simple explanation has nothing to do with theology but rather with economics. Certain positions are vital to the continuation of the Church's administration. Senior pastor, secretary etc... These jobs are paid positions at just about any church you go to. (Though not all.) Without them, there is no church, or at least no regular church service in a designated facility. (Of course we are the church. You know what I mean.) As churches get larger there is more money available and more positions open up that are considered "vital" and are therefore paid.

[Mike Bruce]

To some extent, you get what you pay for.

I've known many paid church musicians for whom it was a career, or second/supplemental career. They raised families, paid their mortgages, and yes tithed. They were no less devout, devoted, dedicated, than the volunteers. One such gentleman recently retired after more than 60 years as a public and private music educator, choir master, organist, and volunteer. He was a pro and was paid for it. As far as I'm concerned, the church benefited from his paid music leadership.

Peace, Mike Bruce.

[63dot]

Originally Posted by GuitarSmith

For example, should a church use a decent/just OK guitarist who plays for free (for Jesus) or should it pursue a better qualified, semi-pro or pro guitarst who should be compensated (and who will greatly enhance the quality of the music). Let's face it, shoddy music done by sincere people is still shoddy. The Psalms call for "skilled" musicians/vocalists. Any thoughts?

In most cases, if possible, using volunteers is a great way for either a non-profit, or tax exempt, or low budget organization to operate. That being said, it makes sense for some people to get paid. So I say, "It depends."

You can get quality performers, or people in any church capacity, to volunteer. And not just for church, but any entity.

Will you get better and more dedicated work out of paid employees? Will let's say musicians in a church who are paid do a better job?

I think in most cases, sure, but every church and community differ. Do you live in an area where there are no musical outlets or do you live in an area which puts on major music festivals and has access to many colleges and universities which produce plenty of trained, soon to be professional musicians willing to play for free just to play? If you look hard enough in such an area, it's not impossible to get some PhD who makes plenty of money at their university teaching music at the university and is willing to offer their services for free for their church. Part of what makes most people reach a high level of education and/or success is that they understand the value of being a volunteer. At the very least, that person spent many years in school working their butt off and never got paid a cent. One guy I know volunteers in his church band and he's thrilled to play and utilize his hard earned four year degree in music. Many of his fellow grads are still yet to play out in front of people, and truthfully, many of those BFA and MFAs in music will never get a venue to perform, write, teach, or orchestrate in a public arena. Honestly, the best musicians I have met in my 40 years of playing have never got out to play live much, or at all. And believe me, many of those people would have loved to.

Whether it's church, or a paid gig, one should see it as an honor to play out live. There are many people much better than you or I will ever be that never once get the chance to get out there in front of people. One guy I know developed a nerve disease, another I know has stage fright though he's an ace in the studio. Some musicians can play, but don't have the assertiveness it takes, or persistence, to even have the courage to market themselves.

I worked in a large non-profit that relied on hundreds of thousands of dollars in government funds and I was a volunteer, even when I became chairman of the board. The hospital where I also worked at, luckily as a paid employee in that case, had a third of its staff as unpaid volunteers. Most of those volunteers had a college education. We also have a world class aquarium that has had thousands of the local people here volunteer there, as well as having worked to get it built, maintained, and in compliance for future growth.

It's not just churches that rely on volunteers, but many, many secular organizations where people put in big hours, even full time hours, to keep things going.

[Joe-Bob]

Originally Posted by GuitarSmith

I am wondering if you guys think church musicians who play regularly and commit a significant portion of time each week to the worship team should be paid?

Yes, they should be paid.

[beardface]

I'm on both sides of that coin in a way. Wednesday nights and one sunday night a month I lead worship for a youth group with a high school kids making up the band besides myself. I do get paid for this job and even though every other week i have a check deposited in my account, in no way does this interfere with the "God -> Jesus-> Me" aspect of my life. It is entirely a blessing and these kids are wonderful to work with.

On Thursdays and Saturday nights I am the house drummer for a Disciples of Christ church here in town. I get paid for this as well. The church wanted to start a new Saturday night rocknroll service and did not have a very deep pool of musicians in house so they put an ad out on Craigslist. The PW leader and the bassist are both members but the rest of us are there to help and i gladly accept their payment for my services.

On sundays, my family and I commute 60 miles to Omaha to attend our church http://www.redeemeromaha.org/ . My good friend is the worship pastor and I play lead. we have a drummer and a bassist as well. This is our church home and I do not receive nor have I ever asked to be compensated for my playing or time. I thoroughly love this church and give freely of my time and money to attend and participate on the Worship Team.

In the past, i was a part of a band that was payed to provide worship every sunday morning for a church plant. we did this for two years until they had the resources to manage a worship team themselves. Those were years of church growth and they saw fit to have a top notch professional worship team up front every week while they were still young.

I guess all in all, like everyone else is saying, it just depends. To me there is not a ethical or spiritual debate about it. And thats IMO of course. God has blessed me with talents and I have always seen to it to help anyone or any church out with those talents as they see fit. If they are willing to pay, then I will accept their gift.

Thats about it I guess.

Matt