Should church musicians be paid??

[psychetelec]

I make a good(OK, decent) living using my God-given talent as a musician, so I consider my time spent playing in the church band on Sunday mornings and in rehearsals to be a "talent tithe". Plus they buy me bass strings. So no.

[Billy G. McCoy]

Well JEFFsJEEP.

You are obviously not a full time musician.
Yes, read ALL of Romans...you are still uneducated. Ask you Pastor about it.

I play guitar for a living and I choose to play in church instead of other secular venues that I could play on Sundays.
There are a lot of churches that have no problem with paying me for my skill/services.

Why do you guys have a problem with it?

You guys just are uneducated....you think you know what you are talking about but you don't....I can tell you both couldn't make a living playing guitar if you wanted to....so you want to kick the guy who can.

(SAX)...you refer to me disrespectfully as just an axeslinger and that I should leave the non paying gigs alone.
How idiodic is that?
I am an axeslinger and I am proud that I was able to take this talent that God gave me and multiply that and provide for my family.

AGAIN....I do sometimes give of my time/services to the church and to other benefits...but I don't do that on a regular basis....I would not be able to pay my bills.
Nevertheless, I have stated this before, and you guys just ignore that part...

Neither one of you guys want a musician to get paid, because that would put you guys in a catagory of musician that DON'T get paid.
Doesn't make me any less of a Christian or you guys an more of a Christian...

AND YES, the goal is for the band to be as good as humanly possible...we should expect to be highly skilled and give our BEST!

I didn't hear any rebuttal from you guys on the Christian Artists who make a living playing/recording music that you both purchase on a regular basis.
Those same artists perform in churches all the time for a fee.

What....no rebuttal on the LAKEWOOD band and music there????
The guitar player alone makes more money a year than both SAX and JEFFSJEEP put together.

That is wonderful if you ask me....he plays music for a living. He is an axeslinger too!....a really good one!

Why can't you guys be happy for those of us who do make a living playing guitar and happen to get paid to play in church too?

I may reitterate that I tithe and give offerings. Sometimes my offering is MY time and talent...sometimes it is monitary. Either way, it is NOT up to you or anybody else to say that I should NOT get paid and that I should give of my TALENT. It is MY choice alone how I give my "offering" and what that "Offering" should be....whether my time/talent or monitary.

Instead of kicking people and judging...why dont you embrace the idea that there are highly skilled players that WANT to keep playing in Church and if they get paid...we should be happy that the Church and GOD is taking care of his children monitarily as well.

Over and OUT!

[Durtdog]

Now I remember why I stopped going to church.

[TELEkinetic]

Originally Posted by Billy G. McCoy

You guys just are uneducated....you think you know what you are talking about but you don't....I can tell you both couldn't make a living playing guitar if you wanted to....so you want to kick the guy who can.

Billy - It appears you missed day one of the Dale Carnegie course !

I don't think I've ever seen a post locked in this forum before, but........

[Billy G. McCoy]

On the contrary Telekinetic...

Just tired of being hated on.
It's funny you didn't mention the other two boys missing the Course....even though they missed the point and their education.

Okay....that's enough.
I let my feelings get out of control on this stuff.....this is ridiculous!

Dirt Dog...you are CORRECT....I had left the church once and contemplated it again a few years ago because of stuff like this.

I need to apologize right now to everybody!
Especially Sax4blues and Jeffsjeep. I'm sorry boys....I shouldn't have got worked up that way.

I apologize to you to Telekinetic....as I apparently offended you as well.

That was not my intention at all....I just started out answering the post just like everybody else....it just seems like I'm the ONLY musician here getting paid for what I do. There are others like me who get chastised for this all the time.

Once again, I apologize to all of you that I offended.

Billy

[twangcaster1]

In the scriptures, Jesus said that he dispises the hireling because he does not care about the sheep. I think getting paid to play music in church(a.k.a worshiping God for material gain) would be offensive to Him and would technically make the person a hireling.

[sax4blues]

Originally Posted by sax4blues

I guess I did not read the part that church music is the full time job and primary source of income. I agree, if my main income is from the church then of course I will be paid. I have a good friend who is worship/music leader in the church world and he is paid, that’s his full time profession, working in the church. I would never ask someone to sacrifice their financial stability to serve.

I do not believe there is a rule that musicians should be paid. I think it’s fine if they are.

If a church decides to pay people to play music, manage IT systems, oversee daycare, repair facilities, clean windows, cook food for the homeless,..... I think that is all great, I really do. And if I've dedicated my life to serving ministry at the exclusion of other income of course I must provide for my family financially. I want you to be paid.

Five times I said I agree with paying people to work in church, including musicians (what the hey, I'd even include drummers). I'm not sure how much more supportive I can get. I am sorry that my personal opinion that churches are not obligated to pay musicians any differently than other members who serve was presented as bashing.

[TELEkinetic]

Billy - I wasn't offended. Just suggesting that by looking at your number of posts that you are relatively new here. We welcome you here - and your opinions. However, when folks start saying personal things, posts get locked, feelings get hurt, etc......

Personally, I play nearly every Sunday and wouldn't take a dime for it. Playing for 44 years, a lot of the people in my church ask me if I play professionally (I don't), but after all this time I might be considered to play at a professional level.

I'm now giving back for all the %$#@ I did during my youth.

Apology accepted.

[Billy G. McCoy]

Thanks Telekinetic.

Sax4blues.....Yes, I read your posts...also noticed you agreed with JeffsJeep. No matter....I apologized because I thought it was the right thing
to do my friend. I got offended...and when that happens...I am supposed to ask for forgiveness. (Biblical)

Twangcaster....I don't think God is offended at all for hiring people for their services.
The Pastor and other folks in the church get paid....
I think God would prefer to take care of his children as much as possible including monetarily if possible.

Just like we would do with our own children.
Besides...it is Biblical.....please read up on it.

Billy

[Billy G. McCoy]

Hey Sax4blues....
apology accepted. I did take it as bashing...I'm sorry.

Telekinetic....just because I have very little posts as THIS user....doesn't mean I have'nt been here before and doesn't mean I have'nt been here for a few years lurking about the forum.
I have been in this forum for a LONG time....been here under another username as well.
Also....been around the block a time or two....I'm 42 years old.
The personal attacks were focused on me first...nevertheless, the Christian thing to do IS NOT lose my temper...which I did....which in turn, is why I apologized. :)

I wasn't aware that the thread got locked.....how am I still able to post if it is locked???

B

[refin]

Group hug.................

[bubba_b]

I'm an audio/visual engineer. For 16+ years I've been studying and working in that field. It is how I make my living. For the last 7 years or so, I've made 95% of my income doing it for the Church. I still do. I've been the employee and the employer. As an employee, I need to be paid for my work because it is my profession. If an employer doesn't pay, I move on. As an employer, I would not consider EVER asking - let alone insisting - that someone do what I need them to do for nothing. If I'm wanting a job done by them, I've already vetted them as a qualified candidate and the requirements of the task justify payment. I've also been a musician (guitar, drums, bass, vocals) for the past 22 years. I have volunteered and been paid for my playing. With that said, let me say this.

I see no difference between someone who gets paid or doesn't for playing for the Church. As I've said before, it is the personal decision of the worker on accepting payment or not.

The more I read this thread and the responses to it, the more I see what a divide money becomes in every aspect of life. A church I work at regularly (as a soundman) has been in a series about finances and what the Bible says about this area. There's so much in this area to talk about it would take several pages to skim the surface, but there are a few good points I want to make about it.

1. Our money is NOT OUR money. Everything we have, including our own lives, belong to God and Him alone.
2. We are stewards of what God has placed in our care and He holds us accountable for how we use those resources. Money, for some reason, seems to be the most difficult thing for us to give up.

I am 100% convinced that if money and tithing were not such an issue with Christians, this whole paid musician issue would be moot. Look at it like this: in the average Christian church, the income received through offering is about 2-3% of the average household income for the given area they live. Also consider that some members give above and beyond the 10% God asks of us. At this church I work at, they put some numbers up to make a comparison. If every member were being obedient and tithing, the church would bring in about $43 million/yr. Currently, they budget on about $13 million annually because that's what they get. In contrast, if every single person in the church were tithing obediently and everyone was living at the poverty line, the church would net a $1 million/yr. increase! Do some research on what the effects of an obediently tithing church would have on the world and it will sicken you to see what we are not doing with the money God has blessed us with. He has given us so much and only asks for 10% to take care of His bride and we're still too greedy to do even that. Our boats and flat screen TV's and Starbucks are more important to us.

I urge all of you to consider that bringing your money to God is the best thing you can do for yourself and the Bride of Christ. It will free you. This is the only place in the Bible that God challenges us to test Him in this! How much more assurance do you need?! Give Him what He asks and He will surely not withhold more blessing than you can handle.

How does this relate to paid musicians? If every Christian church had a fully tithing congregation, there would never be an issue of "we can't afford it", no matter the size of the church body. Every department and ministry would have more than enough resources to pay a substantial staff, reach the entire world for Christ AND end poverty and world hunger...within a year!

Lastly, I want to say that God works His will through us...people. When we (His people) refuse to pay others for services, we are stepping out of our ability to be the blessing that God may be wanting us to be in providing for that person. God doesn't drop bags of money on people's doorsteps who volunteer their services. He provides for them by using other people. Don't assume that you are not the "other people" God wants to use to bless someone and help provide for their needs. We are all the "other people".

[bubba_b]

Originally Posted by psychetelec

I make a good(OK, decent) living using my God-given talent as a musician, so I consider my time spent playing in the church band on Sunday mornings and in rehearsals to be a "talent tithe". Plus they buy me bass strings. So no.

As I have always said, if you don't want to be paid for playing, that's ok. However, it should not be expected of you. They buy you strings, that's cool. At least they understand that even playing for free is not playing for free. The cost you pay personally for wear-n-tear on your gear can be financially substantial at times. Tubes (and bass strings) are not cheap.

You can't, however, consider your playing a "talent tithe". What you literally said there was, "...I consider my time spent playing in the church band on Sunday mornings and in rehearsals to be a "talent tenth". The literal meaning of tithe is "a tenth" or 10%. Are you saying you give 10% of your talent to church playing? I know that's not what you meant, but it's important to remember that your time and talent are not a replacement for tithing. Nowhere does God say that's ok. Learning to let go of your control over money and let God be your source of security is extremely important to Him. Do both. Without proper funding, the Church can't succeed and He knows this. We are ALL to be a part of caring for the Church financially, not just 20% of us (the typical % of church attendees that give anything at all).

[scooteraz]

It is different for each situation. There are Christian churches out there that think Pastors should not be paid either. They feel that the apostle Paul was showing the way how a Christian teacher should act by not getting paid for his preaching (he was a tent maker). Most mainstream Christian churches do pay pastors and other professional church staff.

That word "professional" seems to be the dividing line. If they are hired for their specific services in a certain area, e.g. pastor or secretary (or even music director), then they get paid. Most places, however, do not pay the choir. They are considered as volunteers. That is, they are not considered professional; therefore, they are not "worthy" of wages. Not that some, if not many or most, could not make at least some money at their art, just that they do not and have not been contracted by their church.

I have played for some years in my church band. Now, I think that changing from my day job to being a working musician would be a HUGE effort (particularly since my current skill level would have to come up, in my opinion). So, I am probably among those who Billy G. McCoy would think inadequate for prime time. Not sure I disagree in that. I have been volunteer for the entire time I have played. However, since my volunteer time does not "officially" count for my tithe, I have begun to re-asses whether volunteers should not get paid. I am better than 3 chords (hey, didn't Billy Gibbons say something about 3 chords and 30 years of music when their XXX album was released? just saying) but Stephen Curtis Chapman I am not.

Suppose the church had to pay each "volunteer" some nominal fee for their services rendered at the going rate? Even if this money were just turned back to the church as an offering, at least the person providing the service is being compensated. And then, if it is turned back to the church, no one can discount the value of a volunteers contribution. There are a lot of issues with this as a model, but it is a thought. From an IRS standpoint, it would be compensation (say on a 1099) and a deductible contribution (on your 1040). And everyone is happy...but the bookkeeper. Just a thought.

[psychetelec]

Originally Posted by bubba_b

As I have always said, if you don't want to be paid for playing, that's ok. However, it should not be expected of you. They buy you strings, that's cool. At least they understand that even playing for free is not playing for free. The cost you pay personally for wear-n-tear on your gear can be financially substantial at times. Tubes (and bass strings) are not cheap.

You can't, however, consider your playing a "talent tithe". What you literally said there was, "...I consider my time spent playing in the church band on Sunday mornings and in rehearsals to be a "talent tenth". The literal meaning of tithe is "a tenth" or 10%. Are you saying you give 10% of your talent to church playing? I know that's not what you meant, but it's important to remember that your time and talent are not a replacement for tithing. Nowhere does God say that's ok. Learning to let go of your control over money and let God be your source of security is extremely important to Him. Do both. Without proper funding, the Church can't succeed and He knows this. We are ALL to be a part of caring for the Church financially, not just 20% of us (the typical % of church attendees that give anything at all).

Yeah...climb down off that high horse for a sec and show me where in my original post I mentioned I don't tithe. Please put it in big bold letters too 'cause I can't find it. I really don't see how someone could totally misunderstand a post. And, I don't need anyone telling me the meaning of the word tithe. Thanks.
As I said, I make a living playing music, the time spent playing/practicing at church is in fact, roughly 10% of the the time I spend playing in a week. So...I consider that time as payback for the talent God has given me, what I called a talent tithe(I thought that was a pretty good description but apparently not), and thus do not/would not take payment for it.

[sax4blues]

Originally Posted by bubba_b

As I have always said, if you don't want to be paid for playing, that's ok. However, it should not be expected of you.

Throughout this entire thread I struggle to understand how someone is "expected" to play for free? My church does not pay. I can either offer to play, or not. Nobody has called me with the expectation that I play or somehow I would not be welcome at the church. We have members who are much better musicians than me that don't play in church.

Maybe it would help me understand the frustration if I heard an example of how a church makes someone play?

[Sterling Indigo]

...now who did you say you play for again?

[Telebass]

I feel honored and blessed that I've been invited by multiple churches to play in their bands. I guess I could see if there was a very large time commitment involved maybe getting some compensation for your practice time, but I don't think I could accept real pay for it. I've played in Sunday morning contemporary bands for two churches, youth service bands for one of those churches as well as a third, and also led worship solo for a youth group at one of them, but I get enough enjoyment out of praising God with or without others that I don't think I need any further compensation. This past summer though, I was actually given surprise compensation for playing in the band at my parents church as one of the members bought me a brand new G&L Legacy (strat) for coming to play lead for them. I almost felt bad accepting it, but I would have felt bad turning down the gift as well (and as a poor college student/guitar player, you don't pass up a free guitar )

[bubba_b]

Originally Posted by sax4blues

Throughout this entire thread I struggle to understand how someone is "expected" to play for free? My church does not pay. I can either offer to play, or not. Nobody has called me with the expectation that I play or somehow I would not be welcome at the church. We have members who are much better musicians than me that don't play in church.

Maybe it would help me understand the frustration if I heard an example of how a church makes someone play?

I never said any church "makes" people play. I only said you would be expected (at most churches) to play - if you were asked to or auditioned for the role - for free. They make it clear in the process that you would be volunteering and not monetarily compensated. Therefore, if you want to be in the band, you are doing so with the expectation that you will not be paid. Just to be extra clear - you are not expected to play, you are expected to not be paid if you do.

Psychetelec: You asked me to show you where you said you don't tithe. I can't, because you didn't say that and neither did I. I'm sorry if you took it that way. All I was saying is tithe and time are not the same thing, but your post could lead someone to think they are interchangeable. That's all I'm going to say about the matter.

[JeffsJeep04]

Billy, I hate that it got so heated, I just think we see things very differently. I'm not trying to keep anyone down. You say you turn down secular gigs to play at church, and I just had a very hard time believing that, is it studio work?

Anyway, to me, the biggest difference between 99% of worship guitar players and the ones who are making more then everyone in this thread combined is that they are writing and producing their own music. That is a full time job. When you practice one night a week and devote a sunday to it, you aren't compromising your earning potential for your family.

A pastor gives his whole week to the church, and is paid accordingly. If the church you play at requires a large portion of your time (say, 10 hours or more a week), then yes, pay should be discussed. I haven't come across that situation before, but then again, I've never been involved in a church with more then a few thousand members. Perhaps some of the mega churches require that amount of time from their players. It's not for me, and that's why I'm in a small congregation now. I think when it gets to that point, the production values get in the way of a real connection. That is just for me personally, if you feel opposite, then that is your way to worship and I am glad that we live in a country that allows us to worship in our own way.

[pengipete]

As an atheist but one who respects the church and appreciates the work done by a lot of good and well-intentioned people on it's behalf can I say that I am shocked and disturbed by the content and tone of some of the posts in this thread.

You are all Christians and share a common faith with a common goal - to do good work on Earth and serve your God faithfully in your daily lives. There have been variations in the administrative practices of individual parishes since Christianity began and a decision that is made at a pastoral level is nothing that needs a falling out between friends here.

As an independent observer I have to say that fighting and ill-will between friends is a greater concern than the one being discussed here. Pehaps a good time to call it a day and contemplate what just happened.

[sax4blues]

The pastor at our church volunteers a steady amount of his time to an outreach ministry in another city. I talked with him about this and his perspective is that many church members give of their time and talent after they have worked 40-60 hours a week. His paid ministry is his job, just like our day job, and he also wanted to give of his time and talent like any other member of the church.

[AmericanStd.]

YES! I don't play in church anymore since I moved but many of us are not rich and our supplies and gear are not free. We bought the computers to run the Powerpoint programs, we bought the PA system and our own microphones, not to mention our personal gear, (which needs to be maintained, too) and this is not to mention the time we put in.

I can understand it being a labor of love, and I agree, but we can use a little help sometimes, too.

[Bill Scheltema]

Howdy boys,
Interesting thread.
Someone mentioned how they remember why they left church.
I also left what people call the church, but not because of conflict or people issues, these things are expected.
I too spent many years as a musician within the churches I attended, played in bands, was on 100 Huntley St., youth rallies of all sizes, attended pentocostal, baptist, home fellowship, missionary congregations and so on.

I left because of a false gospel being proclaimed, and the lack of a love for the truth by leadership accompanied by true repentance.
Of course at the time I thought I was saved by this gospel until the light of Gods truth actually shined upon me and I was saved and born again realizing that I was never remotely saved at all during this whole time of service to God but was in fact unrighteous works of which I repented and as Paul, considered as dung.

So, unless someone is truely saved by God all these things are dead and full of unrighteousness. This is what must be determined first, before dealing with the issue of payment.

Remember what Paul said, they have a zeal of God but not according to knowledge.

FYI I am not looking for a fight here.

Bill Scheltema

[tyrone]

Originally Posted by Bill Scheltema

Of course at the time I thought I was saved by this gospel until the light of Gods truth actually shined upon me and I was saved and born again realizing that I was never remotely saved at all during this whole time of service to God but was in fact unrighteous works of which I repented and as Paul, considered as dung.

So, unless someone is truely saved by God all these things are dead and full of unrighteousness. This is what must be determined first, before dealing with the issue of payment.

Remember what Paul said, they have a zeal of God but not according to knowledge.

FYI I am not looking for a fight here.

Bill Scheltema

I don't think anyone would disagree with you here, on the issue of the heart determines if it is purely "worship" or not.

I guess there are some churches which would prefer their corporate worship time on sundays to be as professional as possible and would hire non-christian musicians to round out a worship band (or team, whatever).

The argument has been made before: no one cares if the plumber is a christian as long as the toilet will flush, and to a certain extent, who cares if a musician is christian as long as the music is transcendent (this is open to your own interpretation of what transcendent would mean)?

With that said, if non-christian musicians are being paid to provide music at a service, so-called christians could be similarily compensated.

One more thing: As a worship leader, I wish more of our "christian" musicians were paid -- if only so that it would provide incentive for them to live up to a certain professional standard when it comes to musical performance -- especially if the audience is one creator of the universe.

[refin]

What an interesting thread-------I'm sure I have made some comments,I would have to reread it all.
There are alot of people who don't understand the time it takes to rehearse during the week,plus an early rehearsal on Sunday morning.If a worker is a church member,they will usually donate their services---whether musician or plumber.But they shouldn't be EXPECTED to do so.

[jspeter51]

Well, I have not read this entire thread, but this definately seems like a touchy subject. Let me first say that I am employed by a church. Not as a musician, but as a youth pastor. My first love is reaching young people and being able to lead them in a positive manner. In fact, I went to private college on school loans and got a degree in youth ministry. For the 4 years I was in college, and 6 years after, I worked with youth groups, and didnt get one red cent for it. In fact, now I am employed by a church and make less than I did working part time at my previous job. I don't do this for the money, I do it for the love of it. I feel fully that God has called me to this position, and will take care of me whether the church pays me or not. I also play on the youth worship team and the main worship team when needed. I have talents that not everyone has, and if I can use them to help out the bigger picture, I am all for it.

That is how I like to see musicians in the church. Doing it for the love of what they do, and for the love of the ONE that they are playing to/for, not for accolades or money. Worship is such a vital part of the service, and egos should not be involved, imo. Our job is to lead the congregation in giving God worship and praise. This is the one part of the service that is FOR God, and it should not be taken lightly, imo.

That being said, if a church can afford to pay musicians, whether its buying strings or cutting a check, then by all means they should. We have a huge Christmas production every year, and we have a 30 person orchestra (Including me playing bass). It is a huge undertaking and requires 2 weeks of nightly committments. The entire orchestra is paid, but they are paid based on the donations and ticket sales it takes to make the production run. I have absolutely no problem with it, and I am humbled to feel like I am worth being paid to play.

More power to the churches that can afford it, but my hat is off to those of you that play week-in, week-out for absolutely nothing... you are a blessing

[giantslayer]

Originally Posted by sax4blues

Throughout this entire thread I struggle to understand how someone is "expected" to play for free?

It's pretty simple. If an offer of compensation is not extended or understood, then it expected to be for free.

I know a lot of us are approaching this from a job/gig, employer/employee type of perspective. That is probably applicable in a mega church type of setting. For most churches, I'd say a family/friends type of analogy would be more fitting. If your mom asks you to mow the lawn, do you expect compensation? Of course not. If your brother asks you to help him move into his apartment, do you expect payment? No (except maybe lunch). If your friend asks you to set up his guitar for him, do you charge him? No.

[klasaine]

Originally Posted by giantslayer

It's pretty simple. If an offer of compensation is not extended or understood, then it expected to be for free.

I know a lot of us are approaching this from a job/gig, employer/employee type of perspective. That is probably applicable in a mega church type of setting. For most churches, I'd say a family/friends type of analogy would be more fitting. If your mom asks you to mow the lawn, do you expect compensation? Of course not. If your brother asks you to help him move into his apartment, do you expect payment? No (except maybe lunch). If your friend asks you to set up his guitar for him, do you charge him? No.

Sorry, can't resist ...

Do you set up your friends guitar and help people move EVERY WEEK and in some cases maybe twice a week?

[T Prior]

interesting thread..sorry for the long response below but it's a good story.

I did 6 years in a full pentecostal praise band, 2 Sunday Services and a Wednesday Service , 400 to 500 member Church. Monday night rehearsals and maybe Thursday nights if we were playing behind the choir live. Were we paid, ? No, were some paid ? Yes, the leader that was responsible for charts, setting schedules, putting it all together. Was he paid a lot ? no. The Music Minister was on staff, this was his job. He got paid a salary and rightfully so.

SO should we be paid ? Well that really opens a can of worms for a church, should Sunday School Teachers be paid ? How about the volunteers that work around the Church yard cutting grass , cleaning the parking lots, greeting folks, etc..Are they doing a lessor service than a musician ? How about the Carpenter who comes in now and then for a day and fixes stuff ?

I found that when I was playing full time with the praise team that it was not really an important issue for me, I never really thought about personal compensation. I did get to know other players from other churces who were paid, and I can tell you this, they thought they were a big deal, they had a totally different outlook on the praise team and the worship service.

I recall another church praise team director coming to my house to audition me for a few non church related minstry events, he was supposedly responsible for the praise team. He made it clear that he was well paid for his services by his church. He was a horses butt to put it mildly. Before we played music we were sitting at our kitchen table having some snacks( no beer ) and he was bragging about his guitars, his experience , his home studio , all that crap..Not one time did he ask me about me or what I do, etc..no problem, he was about to find out.

We went up the stairs to my music room, studio. He looked at my room and almost fell backwards with embarrasment,at the time I had a full Cakewalk/midi/8 Track 1/2 reel /32 channel board setup , Dx7, a few midi mods, about a dozen Fender Guitars , my 335, a LP and maybe a few more things just floating around. He had been bragging about a little 4 track cassette setup in his living room on an end table. I knew this was coming and couldn't stop it.

We started playing and I got real aggrevated with him as he was just still trying to brag about his abilities, so heck with it, I let it rip. Him and his little buddy that he brought along came to the wrong house that night. I played Clapton, Beck, Beatles, Stones, Merle, whatever I could think of that I suspected that he could not play on his specially made for him Peavey whatever Guitar. the big mouth, I couldn't resist. Not only that , I pulled out my praise book of which I had easily 200 songs listed and he could barely keep up with these, and they at the time were the popular praise tunes in the worship programs. I know, I did the wrong thing, but my wife told me I did the wrong thing at the right time !

Point, I was expecting a praise team leader to come to the house to see if I would fit in with some larger ministry events around town , it seemed kinda exciting, but he was a paid ministry leader, he had all the ego that went with leader and paid . I wasn't buying. Before we got past 3 songs I told him that I didn't think it was going to work for me , I politely thanked him for coming and off he went, forever.

Paid ?? Not sure..if you can keep it in check and understand the purpose and not get wrapped up in the paid musician thing then you will be fine, otherwise you can end up being important like the guy I was just talking about.

Now, the final thought..Was I paid ? Yeh, but not in money. I did 6 years on a Jazz Bass behind a great Grand Piano lady, I couldn't have paid for that music lesson in a million years ! Doing 6 years on Bass behind this gal turned my musical awareness on it's head . What were we playing ? popular/traditional worship songs but a very savvy worhship leader had us playing at least a few songs every week that were on the christian charts. It was a great time for me, I am totally pleased that I was part of it .,

Oh, it all came crashing down because the pastor was caught cheating on his wife so I dusted off the Pedal Steel , grabbed the Telecaster and went back to work in the clubs !

[Quintin]

If your church has the means, perhaps the lead worshipper or coordinator gets paid. They carry the admin load, choosing songs, facing the congregational feedback, doing CCLI admin, etc. But for example, our newest worship leader volunteers all of his time to the church, but the money in the budget gets used as follows...

Music store accounts for strings, drum sticks, etc.
the nice goodies we have to play with, i.e. Aviom in ear monitors & personal mixers

Also, if you played in a band, you'd even pay to get a gig in many cities I've lived and worked in...at church you get to lead something that is going to last infinitely longer, for me, that's worth volunteering for.

My 2¢ (oops) okay my 0¢ ;-)
(my contribution may be worth what you paid for it)

[Lerb21]

I do like the idea that the coordinator gets paid. But I personally don't believe the band volunteers should be paid. They are volunteers after all.

[sax4blues]

My friend's only income is church worship ministry. He has a performance degree and is skilled in many areas including guitar. I have known him for 15 years and he has been with a few churches in that time.

He has never said anything to me about churches not paying.

I think that is because he only considers positions at churches that pay for the ministry services he provides. Kinda simple.

[mrpianohimself]

Originally Posted by giantslayer

It's pretty simple. If an offer of compensation is not extended or understood, then it expected to be for free.

I know a lot of us are approaching this from a job/gig, employer/employee type of perspective. That is probably applicable in a mega church type of setting. For most churches, I'd say a family/friends type of analogy would be more fitting. If your mom asks you to mow the lawn, do you expect compensation? Of course not. If your brother asks you to help him move into his apartment, do you expect payment? No (except maybe lunch). If your friend asks you to set up his guitar for him, do you charge him? No.

I totally agree with everything and i do mean everything Billy Mccoy said in his post. Now what I see here is everyones opinion on what should be done, not what the bible says should be done which is why the church is operating in such error today, because people insert their opinions. Please look at the entire chapter of numbers 18, this gives instructions on how the church should look, period!! Everything we do in the kingdom should be done decent and in order, and that includes the perfection of our gifts. Most people in this country and others have been brainwashed into believing that musicianship is only a hobby, it is not as important as being a lawyer or a doctor therefore pay is not warranted. Yet and still if you take it (music) out of the church you have no church, at least not in entertainment prone America. But I'm sure the same rule applies for other countries as well, take it out of church, movies, elevators, malls, tv, cars, trucks, etc. then you have no successful operations. Heck satin himself was the chief musician in heaven before he was cast out, get my point. I have gone to, and talked to, and watched and listen to church bands and don't let me forget have participated in playing services and have found that musicians that play music for a hobby in church give you amateur sounding music, in most cases. When we go and pay $10 to see tom cruise we want him to give us his best effort so that we enjoy the movie.

Heck when we go and do anything outside of our homes like driving our cars, shopping, golfing, school, etc. we want the best performance both from those items as well as our own personal performances, but for some strange reason when it comes to playing music and or offering up worship to God in church we take on a that will do spirit by not perfecting our gifts which are vocal and instrumental, and every instrument that we play in church is equal. God honors our offerings, but he wants our best efforts. Now I never heard you guys reply to Bill's question as to why the pastor should be paid, after all shouldn't he be first partaker to you all's entire volunteer theory? I urge you to pose that question to him the next time you talk to him(your pastor). The tithe is for the musicians, look it up in numbers 18, pastors are to receive an offering (heave) for their work in the ministry. The bible says it, read it its there.. It also talks about this subject in 1 chronicles 9 v 33. Musicians are to be employed by the church and should do no other work. Thats is what the church should be doing, period. The church is in error that is why the musicians are confused. It has nothing to do with what you believe guys, the church needs to stop teaching just part of the bible to benefit it's own endeavors.

That is why we live in such a messed up country here today because the church is not being a light unto the world. So we need not even answer the question posed, the bible does it for us. It talks about the musicians being paid, not ushers and every other name of ministry brought up earlier to prove a point by some. So if the church simply follows the bible that it preaches from, there would be no error, and it will all work itself out.

mr piano.

[pengipete]

The key guidance on this subject is in the Forum Guidelines

"This forum was established to give people that play guitar and other instruments in religious services a place to discuss this unique type of "gig." It's not a place to discuss religious theology."

[mrpianohimself]

Originally Posted by pengipete

The key guidance on this subject is in the Forum Guidelines

"This forum was established to give people that play guitar and other instruments in religious services a place to discuss this unique type of "gig." It's not a place to discuss religious theology."

What religious theology, "I am not religious", nor do I prescribe to any religion. "If this gospel be hidden it is hidden to those who are lost". The forum question was should musicians be paid to play in church? And since everything we do as believers in the church is based on scripture, my post clearly explains and or gives every answer to the question posed here. All of which was taking from the bible.

mr piano..

[Robbied_216]

Hey,
I kinda stopped reading all this on the second page, as it sounded like people were getting offended, but here is my opinion on the issue...

I am involved in a team in a church based out of Sydney, Australia. I am not going to mention it, but you are probably all familiar with it. I oversee the kids worship musicians, (which has already recorded 5 live albums) as well as playing in our 'United' youth ministry. I don't get paid for the time I invest into the house. It's my decision to serve. I spend many hours of my time to doing this role. If I think I am getting the raw end of the deal, I dont have to do it, cause if I dont want to, there will be someone else who will.....But I consider it an honour and a priviledge to serve. Whilever the hosts on the doors greeting people, and the people looking after the babies in the early childhood ministry, and the people that come early and put the chairs out dont get paid, I dont see why a musician should. The whole argument that you need to pay musicians in order to get "excellence" is a pretty wrong statement. My church is living proof of that....

This is where the volunteer spirit comes into it. There is something beautiful about a volunteer. Church doesn't become a gig. Its a good way of keeping hearts and attitudes in check.

We do have team members that are on staff, but they are in a pastoral care role, covering tasks that are much larger then just being musicians. They serve as musicians as volunteers on weekends, and as staff pastorally through the week. We have "creative" staff who oversee the day to day running of our department on a leadership level as worship pastors, etc. But generally, no one gets paid to be a musician. This is to the surprise of many....

I should probably summarise, its cool if you get paid for playing in church. Just cause I dont, doesnt mean its wrong....I'm totally fine if you do. I personally like the fact that our musicians dont get paid....I guess the thing is is that way it will never be about the money. But hey, if your church is in a position to where they can pay musicians, so be it. I guess personally I dont want other's tithes to go into my pocket. I'd much prefer it to go into carrying out the work of the Lord...in reaching people.....and seeing people saved....

Its something I am passionate about, so would be happy to talk to anyone about it should they want to drop me a PM....

-Rob

[T Prior]

although I posted a lengthy reply above, maybe this one will be more to the point.

If you feel that playing for money is what you deserve, get a paying club gig !

If you are not up for playing in a ministry ( no pay) situation, then don't.

Ok, I'm gonna say this but I certainly do not mean to offend or pass judgment on anyone, but of all of the worship team players I have played with ( 6 year period) , basically, only a very few ( 1 or 2) could cut a club gig outside the church and it was my feeling while playing in worship services that they knew this and thats why they were playing in church, so they could play somewhere ! I personally played OUTSIDE the church for decades before playing INSIDE the Church, like many here.

I have a real good friend who over the past couple of years learned some guitar and sings a few songs, he stinks, he knows it, we laugh about it, he plays in church, he leads worship sometimes, I think this is great but Scott will be the 1st to tell you that he plays in church because nobody will let him play anywhere else ! I have invited him to sit in with our band and maybe one day he will. I hope so.

I asked Scott the other day if he gets paid to play in Church , he said " No, I pay them to let me play " He then joked that the Worship leader has offered him pay to NOT play !

funny guy !

[mrpianohimself]

Originally Posted by Robbied_216

Hey,
I kinda stopped reading all this on the second page, as it sounded like people were getting offended, but here is my opinion on the issue...

I am involved in a team in a church based out of Sydney, Australia. I am not going to mention it, but you are probably all familiar with it. I oversee the kids worship musicians, (which has already recorded 5 live albums) as well as playing in our 'United' youth ministry. I don't get paid for the time I invest into the house. It's my decision to serve. I spend many hours of my time to doing this role. If I think I am getting the raw end of the deal, I dont have to do it, cause if I dont want to, there will be someone else who will.....But I consider it an honour and a priviledge to serve. Whilever the hosts on the doors greeting people, and the people looking after the babies in the early childhood ministry, and the people that come early and put the chairs out dont get paid, I dont see why a musician should. The whole argument that you need to pay musicians in order to get "excellence" is a pretty wrong statement. My church is living proof of that....

This is where the volunteer spirit comes into it. There is something beautiful about a volunteer. Church doesn't become a gig. Its a good way of keeping hearts and attitudes in check.

We do have team members that are on staff, but they are in a pastoral care role, covering tasks that are much larger then just being musicians. They serve as musicians as volunteers on weekends, and as staff pastorally through the week. We have "creative" staff who oversee the day to day running of our department on a leadership level as worship pastors, etc. But generally, no one gets paid to be a musician. This is to the surprise of many....

I should probably summarise, its cool if you get paid for playing in church. Just cause I dont, doesnt mean its wrong....I'm totally fine if you do. I personally like the fact that our musicians dont get paid....I guess the thing is is that way it will never be about the money. But hey, if your church is in a position to where they can pay musicians, so be it. I guess personally I dont want other's tithes to go into my pocket. I'd much prefer it to go into carrying out the work of the Lord...in reaching people.....and seeing people saved....

Its something I am passionate about, so would be happy to talk to anyone about it should they want to drop me a PM....

-Rob

Rob, did you read any of my post?

The bible teaches us how the church should look or be structured, so there is really no question that musicians are to be paid. I gave all of the scriptures that support that as a fact. Again when the bible teaches me something personally for my instruction I don't turn around and question the bible, if I were to do that then why even read it anyway. We should Just live by or own rules in life if we can't take the bible at it's every word. But for the sake of discussion my question to you is, who decides that pastors as mentioned in your post should be paid? Where does that come from? Can you give me a true researched answer? Do you know what the tithe is for according to the bible? Old and new testament. If a musician turns down a church following scripture and distributing pay then that is his or her prerogative, but the church must offer. The music is the most important ministry in a church setting next to the actual preaching of the gospel in the traditional speaking form. Music is ministering the gospel in song. When we get to heaven there will be no more need for preaching the gospel by speaking, but there will be music there. That is how important it is to the father himself. Your church is an exception to the rule, most churches with volunteer musicians have musicians that are amateur therefore the music suffers as a result, even some mega churches that can afford to pay livable wages but are also operating in error, you know, not following the bible on this subject for whatever reason, most likely political.

mr piano.

[Robbied_216]

I'll be honest...I didn't really read anyones post in great detail.....

I have my own opinions about things, but at the end of the day our salvation doesn't hang on this topic....I know it is great discussion for many, but I have aired my thoughts, and I don't want to be a stumbling block for anyone. There are many topics that could be discussed (argued??) till we are all blue in the face. But I choose not. I think if I have enough time on my hands sitting around with my brothers trying to split hairs, I should allocate more time to spreading the Word....

Just my little 2 cents....I just hope that this thread doesn't cause anyone to be offended, as that is definately not my intent....

Thanks for listening....