"Can You Hear Me Now?..."

[Dr. T]

I'm not good at this sort of thing. I just started playing guitar, mandolin and fiddle in my church's "worship band" a few weeks ago. I love it. BUT:

Many people, my wife and others, tell me they can't hear me. I mic my instruments, will not use pickups, but the mix ought to be such that I could be heard. The big problems are 1) the pastor (a sweet, wonderful, Godly man) leads while playing electro-acoustic guitar, and plays as if he's the only instrument accompanying the singing, i.e., too loudly and too MUCH, if you know what I mean; and 2) we have a trumpeter in the band whose instrument is also very present, even without a mic. Those two just eat up the sound of my instruments by occupying the same sonic airspace that I do.

I don't need to be front and center, in fact I prefer not to be. I love playing in the band. But it doesn't seem to make sense to be strumming or bowing my little heart out if it essentially adds nothing to the music. Yet I don't want to drop out of the band either, both because of aforementioned enjoyment and also because I don't want to be seen as pissy and "all about me".

Any suggestions on how to handle the interpersonal dynamics of this situation?

[Rick Towne]

Hi:

I play electric/acoustic guitars and mandolin, and play often with a celllist friend who uses a McIntyre pickup through a tube preamp, a multi-effects processor and a Roland keyboard amp. My acoustic, mandolin and my rarely used bouzouki all have onboard mics and are run through Fishman or Baggs preamps. I've also played with violinists who are mic'd.

Unfortunately, there's no way around it in the modern loud church, whether or not the pastor or worship leader is overenthusiastic on the guitar. Properly micing acoustic instruments is a fine art.

It could be worse, they could use a chorus pedal to magnify tuning deficiencies.

[andy__woods]

I've had that problem a lot too. Our praise band is fairly small:

Song Leader (mic'ed obviously)
Piano
Synth/Keyboard
Drums
Bass
Guitar (me, both electric and acoustic, and I'm mic'ed as well)

Every week for some reason, we always have to reset the soundboard it seems like. Somehow it gets messed with or the sound guy feels like things need to be changed but it's always a hassle getting levels correct. The biggest problem for us is that when we practice, its just the band, and with the congregation, everything changes sound wise. Every week there is at least one song where my dad tells me he can't hear my playing, and others where I'm too loud. Kind of a hit and miss type thing I guess

If it's worth anything, just be confident that everything will come together. Last week it was a struggle, it didn't sound good, the levels were off and it just wasn't real fun either. Yesterday on teh other hand, was great, levels were near perfect and it all sounded great.

You could always slip the sound guy a couple bucks to turn down the Pastor

[drjordan]

How is the pastor playing so loudly? Does he have an amp of his own or does the sound man have him up louder than you? You could always get an amp and try helping the situation out. I have a Roland AC-60 acoustic amp. It has 2 channels, a 1/4" input and a XLR/1/4" (which has phantom power) input. It also has a direct out. So instead of the mic going straight into the house system, you can go from the mic into an amp, then from the amp to the house. Beyond that, you're going to have to tell "your wife and others" that you have nothing to do with your volume. Those are comment/suggestions that should be directed toward the sound man and not the musician.

[Telesaurus]

Simply have those who are telling you, mention it to the Pastor or to whom ever is running the soundboard.
Try to have them bring it up in such a way, that the Pastor understands that it is a distraction to their worship.
Even if it is your relatives, it should not be a problem with a Pastor that should understand that His ultimate purpose is to focus the worship on the Lord.
If it is a problem or creates a probelm, then prayer for direction will definitely be called for.

[dconeill]

Originally Posted by Dr. T

...I just started playing guitar, mandolin and fiddle in my church's "worship band" ... Many people ... tell me they can't hear me. I mic my instruments, will not use pickups, ... 1) the pastor ... leads while playing electro-acoustic guitar, and plays as if he's the only instrument accompanying the singing, i.e., too loudly and too MUCH, if you know what I mean; and 2) we have a trumpeter in the band whose instrument is also very present, even without a mic. ...

Any suggestions on how to handle the interpersonal dynamics of this situation?

Sometimes two guitars is three too many. You don't have to worry about the trumpet, at least not with the guitar, as it's sonically so different that it's not really a problem.

However, it sounds like your pastor might not really know how to play with an ensemble. Does he also lead the singing? If so, try having him put his guitar aside and concentrate on singing. If that doesn't work, set aside your own guitar in favor of mandolin or violin. Most guitar players (I don't know about you) don't know how to play with another guitar, or with a piano for that matter. The ensemble, and the service, might be better served with fewer guitars.

(Seeing a zillion guitar players at a church service still creeps me out - one is usually enough, two can be tolerable, more that that is too many - my opinion only.)

The pastor might have his guitar set loud so that he can hear it while he sings, and otherwise is unaware of how the ensemble sounds as currently mixed.

As for your setup, use pickups. A church service (or a bar band for that matter) is not really the place to be anal retentive about some abstract ideal of "acoustic purity". An instrument pickup will make it easier for the sound tech to mix you in and will probably reduce feedback and crossfeed problems. Be realistic - you're not in a recording studio, nobody can tell anyway (except maybe you), and nobody cares. Adequate is close enough, it doesn't have to be perfect. Remember, you're there to assist the congregation in their worship, and to worship yourself by means of your music, but you're an accompanyist (sp?) so make the overall effect your concern.

Try recording the service "out of the air" (i.e., not from the board but from a microphone) so y'all can hear what it really sounds like. Put foam behind the mic so you reduce the back-echo. Listen critically.

As for being heard, I understand that Count Basie said something like this about Freddie Green: "I can't hear him when he plays, but I sure can hear it when he doesn't." It's not important if the congregation can hear you; it's important that you make a positive difference to the music.

And finally, it sounds like you've got newbie's syndrome. You just joined the band, and already you know what's wrong with it? I'm skeptical ... Sorry.

[andy__woods]

I agree with that Dconeill, it is really hard to play in a church Praise band. There are so many instruments contained in one group, trying to create one sound that it can become noise really quickly. Becuase of that, I don't really play a normal guitar style, I just kind of strum or pick wherever it sounds right. It takes a lot of practice, and good players on the other instruments

[ondisplay]

Originally Posted by Dr. T

I'm not good at this sort of thing. I just started playing guitar, mandolin and fiddle in my church's "worship band" a few weeks ago. I love it. BUT:

Many people, my wife and others, tell me they can't hear me. I mic my instruments, will not use pickups, but the mix ought to be such that I could be heard. The big problems are 1) the pastor (a sweet, wonderful, Godly man) leads while playing electro-acoustic guitar, and plays as if he's the only instrument accompanying the singing, i.e., too loudly and too MUCH, if you know what I mean; and 2) we have a trumpeter in the band whose instrument is also very present, even without a mic. Those two just eat up the sound of my instruments by occupying the same sonic airspace that I do.

I don't need to be front and center, in fact I prefer not to be. I love playing in the band. But it doesn't seem to make sense to be strumming or bowing my little heart out if it essentially adds nothing to the music. Yet I don't want to drop out of the band either, both because of aforementioned enjoyment and also because I don't want to be seen as pissy and "all about me".

Any suggestions on how to handle the interpersonal dynamics of this situation?

Hi Dr.T
I used to have the same problem playing in our praise band.
Most sound guys have no idea about complimentary EQ
They constantly boost instead of cut which is way more effective. When all those frequencies are boosted at the same time you end up with a garblled mess lol.
Since most of us play over mono systems the only way to create a soundstage is with depth adding slightly more reverb to the backline this also helps with seperation. If this doesn't work get a little tube preamp and monitor through in ear monitors and place yourself in the mix.
It gets frustating but remember it's for His glory.
John

[telebender]

I understand your frustration. It is a let down to work up a nice solo, and then have it lost in a bad mix.

I agree with all the comments on pickups. I play with a bluegrass gospel group (outside of church). When we play it is all acoustic. The rule is if you can't hear the guy singing or playing a solo, you're probably playing too loud. I work the mic to control my volume, close for solos and back off for rhythm. I play mando and guitar in this group. All experienced musicians.

In church settings where I'm playing with electric instruments and drums, the straight acoustic set up just doesn't cut it. I usually play electric guitar in church, but occasionally I'm asked to play some acoustic guitar or mandolin. I always plug my acoustic guitar in at church. I don't have a pickup for my mando and it can esily get lost in the mix.

Praise bands are many times staffed with volunteer inexperienced musicians that don't know how to control their own volume or play with other musicians. Many times the sound person doesn't know how mix the band.
A sound person can make or break the overall sound.

I picture a trumpet as a lead instrument doing mostly fills. It may take some coordination to work out who is going to be playing fills during a song. Usually you have one instrument at a time playing the fills rather than clashing with each other. If you back down for each other, it might be easier to be heard in the mix. I've played with harmonic players that want to play full out the whole song.

I think it is perfectly acceptable to discuss this stuff in love with your pastor and sound person. You may need to honestly examine your own playing too. At my church, if a person is known to sing or play a few bad notes, they are automatically turned down in the mix. Their good notes are never heard. I'm not implying you aren't a good musician, but we all need to know our ability.

Our job is to make a joyful noise onto the Lord. I like the line in Paul Baloche's song All Praise And Honor. "Lord if You are glorified, I'm satisfied". I think that's how we should approach playing in a priase band.

Good luck to you Dr. T.

Dave

[Coach]

Working everything together is an art and as stated above, with inexperienced musicians, it only gets worse. I am lucky in that I play on a worship team made up mostly of musicians with extensive live experience. Our bass player was a touring musician for 23 years, I've played many gigs for many years in various settings, the other guitar player used to play in cover bands for years, well, you get the idea. We have anywhere from 2 to 4 guitars on a given Sunday but we can blend it all together nicely. I always play electric, another guy plays electric if the other acoustic guys are playing or acoustic if it's just me and him. But, if he is playing electric with me, I let him play the basic rhythm parts and I just add some other stuff higher up the neck and stuff like that. Basically, we all know our roles and stay out of each other's way.

[Dr. T]

Yeah, half of us have lots of band experience, the other half (including pastor) not.

Last Sunday, however, during pre-service rehearsal, I tactfully mentioned to the sound guy that people weren't hearing me. He said, "Yeah, I turn you up as much as I can. Any more and it feeds back." So I said, "I think it may be mostly Pastor's guitar eating my lunch. I wonder if you dropped him down just a whisker during ensemble sections, and up a little when he's playing solo?" The sound guy (also youth pastor, w/o much sound board experience) tried it and voila! Balance achieved. I also think he may have discovered the beauty of cutting some channels a skotch rather than cranking everything.

So this is a testimony, because, folks, I'm just usually not able to be that tactful! All the people in the team are good, Godly, well-intentioned people with no visible ego problems (except me) and I wanted to be constructive rather than critical. That happened. Praise the Lord.

[Dr. T]

"And finally, it sounds like you've got newbie's syndrome. You just joined the band, and already you know what's wrong with it? I'm skeptical ... Sorry."

I just saw this statement!

FWIW, the bassist, his wife who is one of the singers, and I, all have decades of experience playing in rock, country, blues bands in all kinds of situations. We all agreed on what the problem was.

As noted elsewhere, however, I've rectified the problem by bringing an electric and an amp, which I mic, to the band. I hear myself thru the amp, the congregation hears me thru the sound system. Today two older folks stopped me to tell me that they really enjoyed what I was playing, and one lady said she liked what I was playing but wished I'd bring back the "ukulele" (she meant my mandolin :) ) just because it added a different texture. So I guess I'm in good shape.

[chicknpikr]

I noticed u play the same instruments i DO...how do u set them up on stage? do u have any special stands or anything/ thnx