Are we "too old" for the team?

[soundchaser59]

Originally Posted by DADGAD

Then again, I'm always the one to get asked to play every major production. This because I'm the only guitarist that reads music. I'm the only one that can play any style like rock, folk, jazz, flamenco, gospel, funk, country, blues, chamber music, orchestras, etc.

Why do you suppose the "current generation" players don't get asked, while you always do?

Maybe the "current generation" is out of touch with what it really means to be a musician.......

[guitarwrench]

This sums it up pretty well for the church I am at along with the answer for me on when is it time to retire. Well said!

Originally Posted by mrboson

If churches are excluding musicians based on age, then there's a double standard at work.

TobyMac is 47. Lincoln Brewster is over 40. The Newsboys have been around forever and today have a single out that everyone is falling over themselves to cover in a P&W setting. I went to a Jake Hamilton concert last year and watched his lead guitarist play as he looked like he was literally just recruited out of 1970's Haight-Asbury. The so-called younger generation is not obsessed with our (older) age. Only my generation and older is. The younger generation likes good music, and authentic worship. I know some 50-60 year olds who are the best at providing that.

I'll be playing, singing until I can't hold a guitar any more or God calls me home. Whichever comes first.

[justin.ray]

Seems to me that there has become a fairly well defined 'modern,' 'relevant,' 'authentic' P&W sound that many church leaders are catching onto as being a major attractor for people looking for a congregation. "Authentic" doesn't mean from the heart any more, it is the tagline for what I'd call the postmodern P&W sound, which in and of itself is pretty well suited for worship; the simple rhythm, heavy delay/reverb, dynamic yet predictable song structure... All of those things lend well toward creating the environment that seems to help many people turn away from themselves and towards God, in much the same way different modes evoke different emotions fairly predictably. I don't have an issue with the style (in fact, I like it) but I do take issue with the way things like this get rolled out and over people.

The bigger issue here is leadership in a church not communicating the vision they have to the worship leadership. They may see a 45-50 year-old worship leader and assume he can't/won't/doesn't 'do' relevant worship (I very much dislike that term by the way, the fact that people call their style of music 'relevant worship' is inherently saying that what someone else's preference is irrelevant. How arrogant!). Thinking the 45-50 year-old seasoned musical veteran has to go so you can get the sound that will fill the sanctuary without so much as talking to him about the vision for the style of worship in the church is a horrendously short-sighted mistake. Yeah, maybe he won't do it, or can't get into it, but don't assume that! Talk to the guy, you should be anyway!

There is an aspect of continuing to stay current in your profession, be it engineer, doctor, or worship leader, but for all the talk of 'authentic' in today's churches, it sure seems like more of the same dressed up differently. I'd encourage anyone out there serving in praise and worship to be proactive and find out what the desires, expectations, and hopes are of the people you're serving.

[JohnSS]

It depends if the church in question values faith, service and musicianship over image and trendiness.

I left a church that I helped to grow from a congregation of 10 to over 400 because the general age of the congregation, which was around 28-34 when I started (I was in my late 30's), dropped to around 20-23, and there were a lot of politics and other issues that entered into the mix, a majority due to their inexperience and naivete, as well as a focus more on image than on faith, service and musicianship.

For example, one of the elders (in her 20's) thought it was cool that she worked for Bono's Charity, Red, so she got the pastor to decree that all of the worship team members wear "Red" shirts without consulting the individuals as to whether any of them had any objections or even knew what Red was.

Another decision was to move the drums behind plexiglass and to the far left of the house while the bassist was positioned far right (with no monitors) - because it looked "cooler" - but this left them wondering why the band "didn't sound together" - duh!

I was asked to help fix a brand new Fender Blues Jr. guitar amp because it wasn't working. Turns out the guitarist playing that day had never used a tube amp before and didn't realize that the tubes were missing!

Other people were added to the worship team because they were either "gigging" at clubs or were involved with other areas of the arts in NYC and looked at the church as another gig rather than actually professing their faith and acknowledging responsibility as role models and church leaders. A number of them had/have substance abuse problems and I believe one is doing time for grand larceny and fraud.

I am now blessed to be in a church with a much wider age demographic that boasts impeccably high standards for musicianship and values its members' faith and service for the church, congregation, the community, and in spreading the Word.

Bottom Line - if you have a God given talent and want to use it to serve Him, you never retire - you may just have to find another place to serve. The late Delaney Bramlett once said (when encouraging Eric Clapton to sing) that: "If God gives you a gift, you have to use it or He'll take it away."

[backporch guy]

Originally Posted by DADGAD

Then again, I'm always the one to get asked to play every major production. This because I'm the only guitarist that reads music. I'm the only one that can play any style like rock, folk, jazz, flamenco, gospel, funk, country, blues, chamber music, orchestras, etc.

When is it time to retire from music?

Some old dogs can still hunt. Judging from your quote, you've pretty much made yourself indispensable. Good musicians are always in style, and need never retire.

[javabirds]

Originally Posted by Revman

"Man looks at the outward appearance, but God looks upon the heart"

Yep.

[mrboson]

Originally Posted by justin.ray

Seems to me that there has become a fairly well defined 'modern,' 'relevant,' 'authentic' P&W sound that many church leaders are catching onto as being a major attractor for people looking for a congregation. "Authentic" doesn't mean from the heart any more, it is the tagline for what I'd call the postmodern P&W sound, which in and of itself is pretty well suited for worship; the simple rhythm, heavy delay/reverb, dynamic yet predictable song structure... All of those things lend well toward creating the environment that seems to help many people turn away from themselves and towards God, in much the same way different modes evoke different emotions fairly predictably. I don't have an issue with the style (in fact, I like it) but I do take issue with the way things like this get rolled out and over people.

In my earlier post when I used the term "authentic" I was actually meaning genuine, as in, actual worship. But what you say here is also so true, unfortunately. Just earlier today I was in a conversation with one of our singer/KB players about a song we do sometimes ("We Cry Out"). My teenage daughter, who was over-hearing, commented how she doesn't like our version. I asked why and she said because it doesn't sound enough like Jesus Culture . I actually can cop the exact sound and effects for that song, and we have a gal that can do a pretty good Kim Walker. But we aren't a cover band, so, our version sounds different. We could make it authentic Jesus Culture, but then it wouldn't be authentic worship.

This isn't new. I think each generation before us has struggled with this too. Check out this old video from the 70's that has a whole set of Mustard Seed Faith. First of all, I love this style and IMHO it is welcome to come back. But my point in showing it is that at the time, it was considered to be "the postmodern P&W sound" of its era.

Mustard Seed Faith

[Rick Towne]

Pretty funny and sad at the the same time. Not much mention of skill or maturity or experience in this discussion.

-Don Potter (60+) is the most skilled worship leader I've seen in 20 years, and that includes every major UK/US/AUS band or leader.

-Our 50+ pastor/drummer is a Berklee grad who subbed for the Tonight Show band and has experience ranging from Sly/Robbie in Jamaica to the Meters in NOLA to Art Blakey.
-Our 50+ female singer has a Grammy and toured with Sergio Mendes.
-The 30+ youngster pianist is a classical/pop improviser.
-We can cover pretty much anything.

My experience in the last twenty years with younger worship leaders is that, with only two exceptions, they tend to lack sophisticated musical skills (i.e., knowing more than one acoustic strum pattern) as well as the freedom to improvise.

[SmilinWillie]

I'm 51 and play every chance I can at our church. Thing is, we are a small "Biker Church" and most of the folks are our age. We have a few younger players in their 20's and 30's and we NEED them to grow our church. So the more diverse the age I think the better mix you get from the "old" and the "new". We have been told we can play there as long as we want and as long as our testimony reflects who we are in Him.

So, I'll never retire until I'm playin that "God Worshipin' Rock n Blues P&W in the sky!"

[RockerDuck]

Yo there Willie, remember Ashstreet wouldn't allow us to play Sunday morning one time? Now there's guitars in most all Sunday services. Bet they miss us. I'm 57 and still playing with ya. Who can stop God gifted musicians? Palms 33:3

[TelecasterSam]

I'm now 60! I will continue playing until the PW team gets younger and younger and starts playing music I don't like, then I'll move on and keep playing somewhere else until I'm embarassing myself due to going downhill....memory, arthritis, whatever. But do keep playing. I jam with a man 83 years young. I think music is keeping him young. He's played since he was 9.

[74 Deluxe]

Originally Posted by DADGAD

...Well, this subject led to some discussion within my group. Younger guys said that older players aren't in tune with the current generation. I am the eldest musician at 58...

When is it time to retire from music?

Relating to the congregation is important... So, IF the current congregation is all in their 20's, I'd suggest listening to current Christian Rock on the radio, I do anyway... If you still like and can play it, no reason to retire, IF that's even what you all play in church.

I'm youngest in our band at 52. We rock. 2 guitars, 1 bass, 2 keyboards and a drummer. No musician who cares about the music would ever ask someone to retire. Retire is in your head man, your as young as you FEEL. Tell the puppies your not ready to stay on the porch...

[mrboson]

Originally Posted by DADGAD

...I'm the only guitarist that reads music. I'm the only one that can play any style like rock, folk, jazz, flamenco, gospel, funk, country, blues, chamber music, orchestras, etc.

This is the other aspect in the discussion. The most useful P&W musicians are going to be the most versatile, regardless of age. I take it upon myself to be adaptable to whatever style is needed. My most favorite or least favorite style is not relevant unless I am the MD, which I am not.

The best compliment I have ever received was from a visiting MD from a big church in Santa Cruz, who is the brother in law of our WL. He was asked to be our MD that week, and also played drums. For that service I played acoustic and was responsible with being on the same page as him in the pocket. He played jazzy stuff, calypso style stuff, and funky groove stuff. After the service he came over to me and said he appreciated how I played the right thing every time and it was smooth. He said if I am ever visiting his area to call him and if I didn't mind he'll put me to work in one of his services. So I don't mean that to be a brag, cause it's not. I just take what I do for P&W very serious, purposely listen to and try to build up chops in lots of styles. I always want to answer "I'm on that" when the musical direction goes off somewhere different, not to answer "sorry, I don't like that kind of music". As a result I am the one who gets asked to play 2nd guitar for other people.

I'm 44 now, and see no reason that changes at 54 or 64. Besides, I plan to get better as I age .

[theskypilot]

A lot of times the younger guys think we older folks are not as hip or up-to-date. I only started playing guitar a few years ago and I am having a ball. At 48, I am the most up-to-date in Christian Music and Worship Music in general on our team. All the kids in church come to me to find out what is new and hot in Christian music.

Age has nothing to do with it. It is all about how God moves me, how current I chose to stay and how much I chose to invest in my craft.

[Rich_S]

Just tell the young bucks that contemporary worship music is all recycled U2, and we old farts were around and playing when the Edge invented all that stuff.

I was relieved to realize that when I joined a WT a few years ago at the age of 49.

[WireLine]

Watching this thread with great interest, and have a few theories. I play almost every Sunday in a big box contemporary church targeting younger adults, but most of the band is my age, because the younger players are not interested, not skilled enough to pull it off at any kind of a pro level, or are simply just not there.

There just aren't as many serious players as there were 20 yrs ago in the youth ranks, and attendance is down in most churches nationwide (of course there are exceptions) especially in the young adult demographic. So, the older players end up with the gigs by default.

This can be a real problem for some, as many of us play music as a profession, and would hope the church would respect our professional contributions just as they would a plumber's or lawyer's contributions. Many churches don't, thus further reducing the pool of quality players.

Then there's the viewpoint of the target demographic: just how do a bunch of 16-30 yr olds react when its a bunch of gray and/or balding 45+ folks rocking out, week after week? Are we actually reaching out to them, or are they just being polite? I know their parents and grandparents (!!!) are digging it, but its not them were are specifically trying to reach, is it - or is it? I can only go on what I thought was relevant when I was that age - trust no one over 30...

And, while our church's numbers are steady, even increasing, it seems the attendees are almost all over 35, married, with families, not exactly your typical rocking audience.

[Jhengsman]

Originally Posted by WireLine

Then there's the viewpoint of the target demographic: just how do a bunch of 16-30 yr olds react when its a bunch of gray and/or balding 45+ folks rocking out, week after week? Are we actually reaching out to them, or are they just being polite? I know their parents and grandparents (!!!) are digging it, but its not them were are specifically trying to reach, is it - or is it? I can only go on what I thought was relevant when I was that age - trust no one over 30...

And, while our church's numbers are steady, even increasing, it seems the attendees are almost all over 35, married, with families, not exactly your typical rocking audience.

I will disagree about the over 35 age group. While they may not go to the local club for drinks and a show on weekend nights anymore we are 60 years into the rock era so I think they are comfortable with 50 year old's playing in church as they are spending hundreds of dollars to see near 70 year old's of the superband in concert for maybe the last time.

[justin.ray]

Originally Posted by mrboson

Check out this old video from the 70's that has a whole set of Mustard Seed Faith. First of all, I love this style and IMHO it is welcome to come back.

Mustard Seed Faith

I can dig it.

[duncan121]

So I'm gonna make a broad stroke statement that will probably make me look like a chump but I feel it needs to be said in this thread...

Chuches who have placed their validation in cultural attraction rather than Christ inspired and honoring community are sinful and often deceitful self help pep rallies. Unfortunately people who choose the places as their church home are also reflected in those that lead them spritually. This is not an issue of age as much as its an issue of spiritual maturity. Show me a church that leads it congregation fearlessly with deep, rich, and mature theological truth and I'll show you a church who also craves that musically. That translates at any age and doesn't require bowing to cultral norms..

[JohnSS]

Originally Posted by duncan121

So I'm gonna make a broad stroke statement that will probably make me look like a chump but I feel it needs to be said in this thread...

Chuches who have placed their validation in cultural attraction rather than Christ inspired and honoring community are sinful and often deceitful self help pep rallies. Unfortunately people who choose the places as their church home are also reflected in those that lead them spritually. This is not an issue of age as much as its an issue of spiritual maturity. Show me a church that leads it congregation fearlessly with deep, rich, and mature theological truth and I'll show you a church who also craves that musically. That translates at any age and doesn't require bowing to cultral norms..

Duncan, you're not a chump at all - that kind of sums up my experience posted earlier in this thread from a more big picture vantage point!