Greetings, and a question

[SoVeryTired]

Hi - new member here, so I thought I'd introduce myself and ask a question that's bugging me at the moment.

I play electric ('97 Korean Squier), acoustic and bass at a church with attendance of around 900 each week across two services. We play mostly Hills-style material with songs from various different sources. I've been playing guitar in church for many years but only discovered the joy of Telecasters last year!

The thing that's bugging me...

I spend time at home practicing my parts but then spend half the rehearsal trying to get the right sounds. I'm playing through a borrowed Fender Hot Rod Deluxe which can't be played at a sufficiently loud volume at home (at church it's in a room behind the stage, mic'd up and fed into IEMs). It's frustrating that I can't turn up to rehearsal with my sounds as well practiced as my playing. The only solutions I can see are amp modelling instead of a phyiscal amp, or a very low-powered amp that I can play at the full volume at home.

Anyone else share this frustration and/or have a solution?

[christhee68]

No solution, but I know the problem. I get all my tones and settings worked out at home, and when I get to church I can't even hear it anyway.

[SoVeryTired]

Originally Posted by christhee68

No solution, but I know the problem. I get all my tones and settings worked out at home, and when I get to church I can't even hear it anyway.

Never have a problem with hearing it - in fact I had to ask the PA guys to turn me down in my IEMs! The problem is what I'm hearing at times!

[mrSlush50]

amp modeling won't fix the problem. it will still sound completely different at home and at church. in fact, nothing will fix the problem short of building an exact replica of the room you play in at church in your home. the relative volume of the amp is only one portion of the problem you (and every guitar player ever) are dealing with.

[still_fiddlin]

Originally Posted by mrSlush50

amp modeling ... will still sound completely different at home and at church....

Well, I'll disagree. And, I don't mean to start any battles here. I fully understand the amp vs. no sound on stage struggles we all have dealt with.

But, the problem is a little more basic. How do you take some sound you hear at home and have that be something you can transfer/translate to the worship service?

Simplest, of course, is a live amp that you practice on at home (at stage volume), take that same setup to church, and they stick a mike in front of it.

Many of us don't get to do that. So, the options start to spread out.

For most of us mortals, that means you have to learn how to take what you hear at home, and "translate" that in your head to what it will sound like at the service. Your situation is a little more difficult, so I agree that a smaller amp may be the simplest solution. See if you can borrow a Champ or somthing in the 5W or less range for home, and just take that.

Or, maybe an isolation cabinet for home. Build one, get a mic and mixer for less than $100, and listen to yourself that way.

Me, I like modeling, because I *know* that what I hear at home is what is going into the board. I figured out I can have the sound person come over and plug their headphones into the modeler, and I say, "That's what I hear, and that's what is going to the board, so why isn't it coming out of the house/monitor?" *Eventually* it gets worked out.

[Rgate]

I had that problem, getting great tones then they sound crappy at church.
Solution.....I got a board mix, took it home and tweaked my modeler (then was a Boss GT 8) with the tones of the other instruments, especially the piano. If you don't have a bold enough tone, the piano will make you sound like a weanie no matter how good your tone is.
Good luck, RKH

[christhee68]

Originally Posted by Rgate

I had that problem, getting great tones then they sound crappy at church.
Solution.....I got a board mix, took it home and tweaked my modeler (then was a Boss GT 8) with the tones of the other instruments, especially the piano. If you don't have a bold enough tone, the piano will make you sound like a weanie no matter how good your tone is.Good luck, RKH

The piano drowns out everything in our band. The band leader (piano player) is always saying "I need more piano in the monitors!"

[mrSlush50]

Originally Posted by still_fiddlin

Well, I'll disagree. And, I don't mean to start any battles here. I fully understand the amp vs. no sound on stage struggles we all have dealt with.

But, the problem is a little more basic. How do you take some sound you hear at home and have that be something you can transfer/translate to the worship service?

Simplest, of course, is a live amp that you practice on at home (at stage volume), take that same setup to church, and they stick a mike in front of it.

Many of us don't get to do that. So, the options start to spread out.

For most of us mortals, that means you have to learn how to take what you hear at home, and "translate" that in your head to what it will sound like at the service. Your situation is a little more difficult, so I agree that a smaller amp may be the simplest solution. See if you can borrow a Champ or somthing in the 5W or less range for home, and just take that.

Or, maybe an isolation cabinet for home. Build one, get a mic and mixer for less than $100, and listen to yourself that way.

Me, I like modeling, because I *know* that what I hear at home is what is going into the board. I figured out I can have the sound person come over and plug their headphones into the modeler, and I say, "That's what I hear, and that's what is going to the board, so why isn't it coming out of the house/monitor?" *Eventually* it gets worked out.

You missed my point. Or more likely I didn't make it well enough. Room size, acoustics, bodies in the room etc. etc.... all play a large part in how any guitar amplification system will sound in any given room. There will ALWAYS be adjustments that have to get made from a practice space to a performance space or from one performance space to another. Or for the same performance space, empty vs. filled with people. Modelers get rid of only one of the these issues. That being the gain setting that can be used on a particular amplifier.

[still_fiddlin]

Originally Posted by mrSlush50

You missed my point. Or more likely I didn't make it well enough. Room size, acoustics, bodies in the room etc. etc.... all play a large part in how any guitar amplification system will sound in any given room. There will ALWAYS be adjustments that have to get made from a practice space to a performance space or from one performance space to another. Or for the same performance space, empty vs. filled with people. Modelers get rid of only one of the these issues. That being the gain setting that can be used on a particular amplifier.

No, I get and agree with that part of it. I was saying something similar - you have to learn how to "hear" so that you can tell how what you play at home will sound at church. My (too wordy, probably) point was that, for me, the modeler removes the amp setting part of the transition from home to big room+PA, and it doesn't sound "completely different," at least not as different as an amp gain on 2 vs 7.

The OP's problem is complicated because of the very different amp settings, and in his case, the amp is actually not contributing to the sound in the house, since it's all coming through the PA. In that sense, it's more like a modeling metaphor, so if he's going to use an amp, my suggestion if figure out how to make the practice at home more like the performance setting; i.e., use the same amp settings in both place, with either a tiny amp, or a way to practice loud (isolation box).

[SoVeryTired]

Does anyone here actually use the mic'd up tiny amp approach?

[livinblood]

I think modeling will make the sound more consistent for you. I guess you would need to practice at home with IEMs to be exact.

But I also think you can never exactly translate the tone from home to church; no matter what situation. Someone else may be changing their tone, louder, softer etc.

What I do is dial in an approximate tone. One that I know I can tweak to the situation if needed. If you try to be exact you'll get frustrated and you'll waste time at practice if you do it there. Also, another thing that aids me in this classic dilemma is that I just try to sound like me rather than dialing in the tones used by the original artist.

I stopped practicing tones at home. I still mess with them to learn 'em, but I am pretty comfortable in adjusting on the fly, if I needed to.

[Parma_TeleMon]

Originally Posted by SoVeryTired

Does anyone here actually use the mic'd up tiny amp approach?

I use something similar. My amp is an Egnater Rebel 30 with a direct out and a switch to mute the speaker. It sounds pretty passible in our IEMs, and would probably sound much better if my IEMs were designed for that job instead of staying attached to my head when I run. I used to use a VOX ToneLab Le, but switched to a conventional amp and pedalboard, which seems better for tweaking on-the-fly.

I've been really tempted to to the mic'd amp bit. If I did (or when I do) I'd get a VOX AC4 and run it just at the point of breakup. IMHO, it's one of the most "honest" sounding amps around and delivers killer tones at wonderfully low volumes.

Or get a beast of an amp and run it into a Redbox.

[FenderBender01]

Originally Posted by SoVeryTired

Does anyone here actually use the mic'd up tiny amp approach?

I do! I use either a Fender Blues Junior mic'd up or my Vox Night Train. They are both 15 watt amps. I believe they are a fantastic solution. The low wattage allows to get some really good tones a low volumes (at church or at home).

At our church we do not use in-ear monitors, so I use my amp as my monitor, using an amp stand to point the cone of the speaker right at my face. That is the exact sound that gets mic'd. I would recommend this for home practice too. Some people have mentioned room acoustics...while they do play a role, I do not believe they have a huge effect on the sound of your amp **right at the point of the speaker**. Make sure the cone is always pointing straight at you to figure out a tone and settings that work. I have only needed very limited, tiny adjustments when I am on stage.

I have used modeling pedals/gear before and just do not personally care for the quality of sound at live volumes.

[FenderBender01]

Originally Posted by SoVeryTired

I play electric ('97 Korean Squier), acoustic and bass at a church with attendance of around 900 each week across two services.

I would strongly recommend investing in a higher quality guitar. A good amp is more important, but a good guitar is important too.

[bikeracr]

Originally Posted by SoVeryTired

Does anyone here actually use the mic'd up tiny amp approach?

I do, as well. I usually use my 20 Watt ToneKing Imperial (sometimes a Vox AC4) in an iso-cab with IEMs.

Even if I work out my tones at home, I still need to tweak the amp a bit once I get to our Thursday evening rehearsal. I know that the iso-cab sounds very different from my basement. Now, I use the same amp settings each week and tweak my tones and modulation only with guitar knobs or pedals.

Most of the time, I use a completely different amp (due to volume) at home anyways and know that I will do some tweaking once I get there. That is the nature of the beast.

[Rgate]

You're in a very frustrating situation. I just try to obtain a monitor setup so I can hear myself very clear and just do my job. I never check the front of house sound, I know I may be 'crushed' lol.

I feel bad for players who have to deal with a stage hog. Maybe time to seek greener pastures. Best of luck to you.

[burtonfan]

I'm glad to hear there are 900 people in attendance at your church...YOU MUST ROCK!!

[goldtopper]

Originally Posted by SoVeryTired

Does anyone here actually use the mic'd up tiny amp approach?

I do too- a 15 watt el84 based amp or a vox ac4. I play both set low and let the mic and soundboard do the heavy lifting. For leads, I step on a boost or bad monkey set just slightly higher.

[SoVeryTired]

Originally Posted by FenderBender01

I would strongly recommend investing in a higher quality guitar. A good amp is more important, but a good guitar is important too.

Serious question, without being too defensive of my guitar... would anything other than the pickups make much of a difference?

I've played electric for 15 or so years now, got this Squier from eBay at a great price with the intention of selling it on at a profit, and ended up keeping it instead. I'm suddenly getting compliments from people that barely noticed I played guitar before!

That's not to say I'd never replace it but unless it was causing me a problem I don't see a need to do so.

[SoVeryTired]

Originally Posted by burtonfan

I'm glad to hear there are 900 people in attendance at your church...YOU MUST ROCK!!

We try! Mind you, that's not 900 people in the hall all at once - that's across two services, with the kids in another hall, but we often have more than 500 in the first service in the main hall.